Playing against rushers
I want to ask you some questions about what to do in certain situations in a match, that me and my team can't solve :p
We suck individually, but we have good teamplay and some strats that work well when we have space and time to use them.. but everything brokes when the other team start rushing as CTs. We just can't do anything. 4 Flashes coming from banana @inferno, 3 guys runing through radioroom @nuke, some smokes in middle and running to b halls @dust2, etc etc etc... and this is how most teams play here, they are dumb but they rush and have good aim..
I thought that the solution was watching demos of profesional teams to know how they stop this... well, I have around 6gb of Demos and there is no fucking team that rushes like that, so idk what should we do..
Well everything goes down to 2 questions:
-What can we do to stop hiperagressive play?
-Was there a time when CS was played with that style so I can download demos to learn how we can play against this? (I mean, maybe around 2001 the teams rush everything, i dont know...)

Thanks to all <3
(69 replies)
Created 2012-05-25 21:23 by: HH Sebax
Flashes, HE nades, camping in a good spot, towers....
2012-05-25 21:26:24
by: th3W
#44
Towers... I love Towers
2012-05-26 12:04:15
Rahim :D
2012-05-26 12:23:57
hahaha xD
2012-05-27 04:03:10
i was in the very same situation.

even thought we tried to practice our rush holding, it wasn't working, so once we face those agressive teams, we try to play even more offensively, and making some fakes.

if you succeed to fake them they'll probably slow their play and you'll be able to call strats normally

btw, tuscan was our nightmare. RUSH B, RUSH B
2012-05-25 21:29:21
camp in good spots.
2012-05-25 21:36:17
give them space and let them make mistakes
2012-05-25 21:39:44
+1
2012-05-25 22:18:38
+1
2012-05-26 00:13:52
Stop them with nades HE flashes for example they go aggressive banana you do the strat where three players line up with HE and one watches from ladder if he sees anyone going aggressive you throw the nades and you will kill one of them for sure then it's easier.

Post edited 2012-05-25 21:43:36
2012-05-25 21:40:48
mTw's tactic ahah :D
2012-05-25 21:47:00
It was just an example but yeah i saw mTw doing it.
2012-05-25 21:52:51
yeah and a lot of others have used it since then, the likes of former Lions and such.
2012-05-27 02:40:12
planners of the world united... lol
2012-05-25 21:48:40
early agression like in tuscan, when T, flash mid as soon as possible, maybe even 2 flashes and CTs are fulled at the box. Most teams rush u when they see you are bad so you cant really have normal game if you are 2x weaker.
2012-05-25 21:54:42
There is no ultimate solution. You have to spot the rushers.
When they began to rush, this means, they have only 1-1 guys on the bombsites.

So try to avoid the rushers and take the other bombsite as soon as you can do (I think it's pretty simple when only one guy defend it).
2012-05-25 22:07:41
if you and others would be good invidualy, they could stop this easily, now try doing some crossfires...
2012-05-25 22:09:30
+1
2012-05-25 22:30:50
1° i hate de_nuke

2° a rush team isnt a good team, they have no strats (this is why you dont see demos with rush-teams), and this will only fuck with your team morale and motivation. stop playing with these noobs, and go play with a good level team (atleast try to play against lan teams)

3° if you insist to play against them, flashbangs and he nades are you best friends use them and make the first kill ( this is important: make sure you team cover all the possibly spots, and dont be exposed) hold and make the mad. wait untill the 2nd appears and kill him, the newbies will probably go back (if dont, you really need to stop playing against them). choose a bombsite , go and win the round. if they insist in rush in the next round, do the same, and if you win, they will stop rushing. this works wth me
2012-05-25 22:45:15
2 is invalid :)
when you that you're a level above your opponents individually you'd try to rush at least once as CT to see how it turns out.....and his team apparently is not able to stop those rushes and they get fucked
2012-05-27 02:26:09
Finnish style of play is a lot about rushes.
2012-05-27 02:41:36
Make a good use of the nades,one flash can stop 5 man.
Also just have 2-3 man standing where you expect the rush and wait for them.If you cant kill them then,you simply suck.
2012-05-25 22:49:38
same as with bullies just beat up and whip their asses once so they wont rush you ever again
2012-05-25 23:03:25
+1 :D
2012-05-26 09:27:31
I've played with a team for 3 years. I litterally cannot remember the last time this happened to us. Half of our players are just bad at cs by their nature, and have played the game very little (~200 hours on steam). But if we meet tryhard 18 year olds we will probably just steamroll them.

First of all, you need to change your mentality. You present it as if it were a style. It isn't; It's just them crushing you. Don't think of it as something that you counter. You need to play with a mentality that never puts you in this position. This is also the mentality you need when good teams do start taking you seriously.

So what is that mentality?

Have no fear for the opponent.

I swear that you WILL play better and you WILL stop being crushed if you stop playing with tactics for now.

Every pistol- and gunround with good spawns, rush, or at least use those spawns (nade somewhere). Bad spawns, just run around doing your best to kill people.
Just rush on ecos.

This doesnt mean have no fear of losing! Play to win!

And if the opponent is bad, just crush them. It saves everybody time.

Compete about frags. Poke fun of whoever has least frags. Hunt for frags, no matter how tight the game! 1on1? Take the first shot. 5on2? Start walking towards them. Just cleared a bombsite as T? Start hunting for the remaining guys. If it's a really important game, just tone it down a little.

You need to become the team that crushes other teams. Please let me know if you have questions (or if anyone disagrees), I can go on an on about this.

Post edited 2012-05-25 23:08:50
2012-05-25 23:05:27
you are mostly right, but at some point this hunting starts to pay you back if you obv want to win.
2012-05-25 23:25:45
Yes, there is a limit as to what is just stupid. But honestly, nearly always rushing on the opponent puts you in control and is a surpising move, it lowers their morale and is as good a f2f as any.
2012-05-25 23:31:47
I disagree,

Ofcourse cs is a mental game aswell, but if your team would utalize ur good spawns and just a site on the map u will get owned by any half decent team.

You are right about the fact you shouldn't fear ur opponent but you also have to be a bit cosious.

CS isnt just a mental game, you also need chemistry, skill, brain and a little bit of luck sometimes ;)
2012-05-25 23:30:02
That's why i said at least utilize those spawns. Especcially on train and on nuke is this crucial, I don't want to explain this, I just hope you know how these maps work. On inferno you can take over the middle/banana area with confidence with nades, on d2 you can take over long (or my personal favourite, push lower dark and have someone flash me out middle vs an awp asap). And in my experience, we have crushed more than "half-decent" teams just by rushing over them and ruining their morale.
2012-05-25 23:39:40
Ofcourse I know how these maps work mate ;) It's just when you are rushing u are really easy to anti-strat in my opinion, a single flash can ruin your whole rush in seconds.. I don't know what skill level you guys play so I won't judge that. All I am saying is that moral is also important, but not the main thing so to say. My team could crush ur moral by playing slow rounds and for example be 9-0 up on T-side of de_nuke.

I agree with you that you should utilize these spawns and take over areas of the map quickly, but if you keep doing this in a game you would get really easy to read.

If you would rush B on de_dust2 everytime you'll get a "b-spawn", and you'll get atleast 3-4 a match if you play T-side good. A good IGL of the CT-team will know the spawnpatterns on this particular map and you will be really easy to shut down.

It's not that I fully disagree with your statements, winning a game just comes with some extra factors aswell.

2012-05-25 23:56:24
Okay, our playbook is not as simple as i explained earlier, we do know our stuff. I mean we do know that a b-rush is never the best call. Especcially on d2 as you mention. (((Though I don't think that getting read as doing strong openings is something the opponent can read and react to unless you are doing it wrong)))).

I'm really just trying to nudge op in the right direction.
2012-05-26 00:19:23
I agree ;)
2012-05-26 11:39:15
thanks, we will try to take that mentality,, hope it works.. but what do you recomend exactly to do when the ct team just buy 128921 flashbangs and run to you everyround?
2012-05-27 00:06:04
This rarely happens to us... but I guess something like this could work:

On inferno usually of the best spawns you want to have one guy in the tower, and/or one guy pop to the right as soon as he is up the slope and take a surprising peak here and then move to the boxes to the right. Either way, throw at least one flash up mid with a good spawn in the beginning of each round. The worse spawns can throw nades if they want to go up the slope. This should be pretty easy to hold, the flash up mid will ruin most rushes, or at least delay them and ruin their flashwork enough so that the guy(s) can kill enough of them. The rest depends on the situation (how much they are pushing), but normally you'll just have the last 3 guys working on alley/apartments. You can also mass-nade banana if you have good spawns (or mid even with worse spawns).

On nuke, I really don't see this happening unless you fail to follow the instuctions in my last post completely (ie you never open the door and you camp on troof waiting for them or something).
With good spawns, just play as i said in the last post. Never think "hey, they'll just rush. let's just hold on troof..?" Here are the best variations that will also work vs a team rushing at you:
1st opens door, flashes floor from yellow hut asap, last 4 rush out the door with flashes and smokes
or
the same, except the first two have the only goal of getting into the yard door asap, using flashes, smokes as cover as they run-by anyone holding yard passively
or, if they are shutting down your rushes, and backstabbing you from ramp:
fake inside (first guy sits down and sprays, the rest throw one item each) and go ramp quickly.

with bad spawns on nuke i'd say work on yard a lot (2-3 guys) if they are rushing lobby. unless you have really the worst spawns in the game someone should be able to get into the squeaky door-room. This is a great spot, you can actually hold the whole lobby from here except for anyone creeping up the ladder (if they are mass rushing, you can let the first guys pass and grab a whole bunch). Perhaps another guy spamming on the roof as a backup guy, or if they aren't mass rushing just take a good spot in the lobby.

on dust2 if they are rushing up mid/lower dark you just need an awp who knows the peaks that ruins this. The rest should just play as i described in the last post.
2012-05-27 00:46:28
ty so much, i'll implement everything :)
2012-05-27 02:23:46
For example when you play Dust_2 and they rush the halls they usually have a guy comming from lower (the fragger) and a guy comming from b ( The decoy + flasher).

You can easily counter this strat by holding ur defend positions outside of the hallway. What I like to do as and IGL, when playing D2 as T, is to hold ur defensive positions till about 1:00. When the CT's are going agro they usually peek out to T-base and in that narrow chokepoint they are easy frags for your team.

You should practise crossfires and "surprise" moves with ur mates !


HF GL
2012-05-25 23:25:36
The best thing to do is to rush B only if you have a B spawn. If it's not, it's probably best to delay the rush. If you do rush on your B spawn, the first spawn player should most likely be able to hear any rush in lower tunnels. Otherwise you can always have 1 person spot mid. People usually throw a smoke from the left side of mid doors to top right to cover the view and you can still alert your team saying there might be 1 in lowers. Alternatively, the first spawn reaches near the ent of B site as the CT in lower peaks when it's a B spawn. The first spawn shouldn't be spotting lowers and concentrate on flashing inside B and the second spawn can watch for a lower rush and also throw a flash off the wall to lowers to prevent the rush.

2012-05-26 00:38:04
a [very] good awp should do the trick
2012-05-25 23:40:17
Well, you can fall back and then try to retake bombsite, or when you see that they are rushing towards you to hold your position and wait for them to come at your crosshair..

Also, if you have an AWP he could easily stop rushe..
2012-05-25 23:45:41
by: teco
#25
1. Good AWM player to drop the first rusher and then backs off
2. Wallbang their rushing lines
3. Counter flashes
4. Go to positions where you dont get flashed
2012-05-25 23:52:34
Rushing is as about as dimensionless and easy to stop as it is in an RTS game like SC2. It's only effective if you don't see it coming or if you don't know how to react to it coming. In order to figure out how to deny the rush you have to know how to do the rush, recognize its strengthes. Then ask yourself what are the weaknesses of the rush. One key question is to figure out what point players line up the most durring it. Line ups are a huge factor in close-quarter rushes and can often be the end of a rush if a player is aware of these frequent lineup spots and can take advantage of players falling into them.

For instance a simple (very old) tactic to stop a rush for upper (or as you call it A or top in Europe) on de_nuke is to open the squeaky door with a smoke and then spray through the smoke. Assuming the player that went to do this had the best spawn out of all of you there is an extremely high likelihood that anyone in the vacinity of that line up angle is going to get mowed down or severely dammaged very early on, for practically no risk or cost at all other than a few bullets.

Post edited 2012-05-25 23:56:52
2012-05-25 23:54:37
He is talking about CT:s rushing on T:s. Very different. (by the way: where I play, spraying/tapping the door is a normal tactic, but there is no way you aren't being tapped/naded to death if you try to do something with a smoke before it...)

Post edited 2012-05-26 00:03:06
2012-05-25 23:58:34
Oh sorry skimmed through it. To hold back CT rushes you need to punish the 'focal points' of the rush. For instance on de_inferno if the CT team is constantly rushing down middle to alternate middle the 'focal point' there would be the crossover area where they become visible (which can easily be punished by nade stacking it). Of course that is a very simple example just so people get the idea of what I mean by focal points.

Also knowing how to re-take parts of the maps CT go out of their way to rush to also helps (flashes, wallbangs, and etc.)... but that goes without saying of course.
2012-05-26 08:29:24
Blocks of texts thread. You can camp them out with tactical well placed flashes and smokes. Assigning a defensive awper at a clever spot should work greatly too as they wouldn't challenge as much as they would otherwise.
2012-05-26 00:33:11
I'd take this thread over the threads where I don't know who is trolling who any day
2012-05-26 00:49:34
Thanks to all for the answers, we will start with some HE strats, and watch where can we put our awper..
2 things to clarify:
-It's about when CTs rushes the Ts (some people didnt understand)
-You are talking like it was Europe, I mean, here Probably 1 of 1.000.000 knows how to read the spawns of a map or how to throw a popflash, (our team does know, the rival doesnt), so dont get complex, just smth that works good and explain why top teams doesnt rush as CTs
2012-05-26 00:59:40
100% ignore what the pros are doing. even if you did the exact same tactics as the pros it wouldn't help.

What i said in #17 in a nutshell; play more random and aggressive. Don't try to play like pros, it wont help vs teams you wouldn't win vs anyway.
2012-05-26 01:03:01
Just download some demos of the late ruuit matches in PG, against mTw, fnatic, PGS. You'll see how they usually outplayed PG freaking_aggro style, and you may learn from it.

Hope it helps.
2012-05-26 08:37:54
hide at unusual spots and kill them when they are rushing blindly.... after 2-3 such round .. dey have to slow down..
2012-05-26 08:51:44
about dd2-CT side... .there are several good tactics..

and one important rule: Never hold all positions like short,long mid and B.... Let one free.

best 2 strategies u should try....

try to be offensive.. like let long free.. and go 2 lower.. 1 b... 1 short and 1 mid (flash supporter).with smokes and flashes.. and if ur team have good teamplay and skill its too hard for opponents

or ... Have 5 players mid (inc. tower to short).. 1 to look long(from ct spawn).. and 2 players looking at B (from mid)..

my favourite 2's :D
2012-05-26 08:55:22
6gb of demos? wtffff
2012-05-26 09:45:05
yup
2012-05-26 22:03:23
screen?
2012-05-27 02:29:40
Haha, n1.
2012-05-27 02:50:48
wrong reply

Post edited 2012-05-27 03:34:07
2012-05-27 03:32:48
make sure ur teammates are as dedicated as u are to the game so they can see their mistakes and play more
even if u tell them u fixed the problem with some crossfires or what else , in the midle of the game u'll forget everything and u'll do the same mistakes u did before thats why u and ur teammates need confidence by watching demos and playing aimmaps/dm. this takes time .. thats why u need dedicated players:) but i agree with counter flashes, u know .. when they rush they usually flash , so if u flash aswell when they flash, they'll stop and u might not get flashed and kill them .
thats my opinion

Post edited 2012-05-26 12:07:03
2012-05-26 12:03:07
by: 851 - <3 mSx
#45
one does not simply... stop the rush
2012-05-26 12:19:45
:D
2012-05-27 01:12:53
stop them with nades and flashes take good position and ask for backup thats all.
2012-05-26 12:26:31
by: H Z
#51
You can always wait around for such players / teams. e.g. in DD2 get 1 to watch upper tunnel, 1 to watch lower tunnel, 1 to watch long and 2 to watch mid and short ... that's 5 ... dont do that for too long though cause you gotta plant :) Find out the spot, gang up ... flash, nades, smokes, rocks, slippers ... throw it all if you have to ...and shoot their faces ...

2012-05-27 01:06:12
use nades and take rounds slowly
2012-05-27 01:07:32
theres some really easy counter flashes combined with 1 guy watching some corner so he cannot be flashed. easy kills, its not that hard to play as a terrorist like you'd do as ct.
2012-05-27 02:42:58
Counterflash.
2012-05-27 02:55:53
Just play in a Very Defensive way or in a Very Agressive. just throw lots of nades.
2012-05-27 03:07:56
Dude, just play agressive and throw 3 HE to this rushers, I am sure that this rusher gonna get very low HP after nade

Post edited 2012-05-27 04:01:07
2012-05-27 04:00:32
Actually being aggresive in some way or another as CT is smart nowadays(Especially when talking about anything below top level + mixes/gathers), just sitting in normal positions and being predictable is not something you should do in every single round. Mix it up by doing some organized pushes every now and then. Doing so early in a match, successfully, will make the other team aware that your team is capable of being extremelly aggresive and it might force them to play very passively the rest of the match(Which will make your defensive/safe play much much easier), or you could rely on defensive play in the beginning of the match and surprise with a push round later in the match catching the opposing team off guard.

Note: there is a difference between rushing and pushing, in most maps and situations you should not be rushing as CT eventhough you are going offensive (In most cases you would do so silently by walking).

Anyways, il give you some spesific terror advices for each map which should work at your level(Coming from the top of my head at this early hour :D).

De_nuke:

Send 4 guys slow yard and have one guy watching their back at this position (This position will rarely be countered / expected, even when playing at elite level, I am talking of experience.. Of course you would just use this position once in a match): http://bildr.no/view/1189624

(This "tactic" works well in general as well, at least in gathers/mixes, seeing how 4 terrorists at yard will have the CTs believing the lobby / T-roof is clear and just push out the lobby giving your cover-guy one or two easy kills, but of course if your team gets entry fragged easily yard then its another story. Beware of an AWP at yard or a yard stack from the CTs, this can be countered from your side though).

Another way: Just simply rush upper bombsite if you have the feeling that the CTs might be pushing from ramps that particular round. If thats the case then the CTs are probably leaving the upper bombsite open for retake, or they actually have two guys inside (Two defenders should easily be taken down by your rushing team). Tips: Have the last guy lurking in the far back of lobby to backstab the pushing CTs.

OR you could have your team rushing yard and to the second bombsite (If you get the entry kills yard what are the CT gonna do to counter this having 3 guys in lobby?), either via ramps or the long corridor.

De_dust2:
Have one guy sitting at this position, either with an awp or AK:
http://bildr.no/view/1189627

while the rest of your team is just chilling in upper middle / outside long, it should make for an easy entry kill if the CTs are pushing the halls. If the CTs are just lurking in the halls, take advantage of it and have thre guys working towards long (if you get an entry kill or two then the CTs are in trouble seeing how you have one guy outside the halls and one guy left in the upper middle so the guy in halls is locked for rotation).

De_inferno:
if you expect a banana push, just simply have your entire team pre-nading up banana, which in the case of them pushing immediately out banana should give you one or two entry kills (or at least severely damage the CT(s)), you got the entry kills? Gogo rush B (Beware of B stack, if they were planning to nade banana chances are they were 3 guys and the last guy decides to just hide inside B if you get two entry kills). <- there are variations of this, such as the mTw strat where 3 guys are standing in bottom of banana ready with a grenade while a fourth guy is peaking from the ladder.

De_tuscan:
Just stand in angles and wait for them to enter your crosshair(You could prenade/flash to delay their push regardless). Later if you know they have one or two guys down in the middle, throw in a few grenades and flashes before going for the pick. Or just prenade and flash directly and push them back in the beginning of the round.

De_train:
It would be real stupid of the CTs to overly push on this map early in a round, but if they do then enjoy the free entry kills.

Some general tips:
Learn to dodge flashes. Counter flash/nade. Pre nade. Improve your early round positionings. Attack an area you feel will be left open a particular round. In maps such as de_dust2, de_tuscan and de_inferno you can play really slow as terrorist and just let the CTs push towards you and make mistakes. However on a map such as de_nuke i would advice against camping as you will be spammed and naded down if you are camping inside the lobby area and you might easily be "locked" if the CTs knows you are camping on T-roof / outside lobby.

Final tips: Be aware and always expect the CTs to do a push, then you wont be surprised..
2012-05-27 06:42:28
i fucking love you
seriously this will help me alot thanks!

Post edited 2012-05-30 18:32:03
2012-05-30 18:19:27
:o

Post edited 2012-05-27 18:05:15
2012-05-27 18:05:05
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