Epiphany0PiTER2Titan2INFINITY0Dobry&Gaming2VERY T0X1C0Phenomenon2dope0EventMaps / statsmirage (16:13)cobblestone (16:11)OtherNo demo - MatchpagenerdRage2Aposis0
This article is a subjective opinion piece by staff writer Tomi "lurppis" Kovanen who explains why Molotovs need to be removed from competitive play and Valve needs to make changes to the money system.
The article does not reflect the opinion of HLTV.org or its affiliates.
Players from just about every competitive CS:GO team spoke up together a month ago when Mathias "MSL" Lauridsen from Anexis and Lukas "gla1ve" Rossander brought together an article for HLTV.org with top teams' opinions.
As things often do, this of course went unnoticed by tournaments who seemingly do not care much about the players who, may I remind you, are the centerpieces of their events.
Interestingly enough, no one in Counter-Strike 1.6's history has said the Riot Shield should have been allowed in competition. Yet, while many members of today's community might not remember, back then tournaments also refused to ban it.
First event after CS 1.6's release was CPL Copenhagen, where teams all agreed to boycott the Riot Shield, which then eventually led to its dismissal from competitive Counter-Strike.
That is what needs to happen to Molotovs.
The argument heard most often from people who are pro-Molotovs isn't actually an argument for Molotovs themselves, it's just an argument for "new" things. Surely if Molotovs added more to the game than they took away, we would hear about that too?
Teams and players were forced to adapt to Molotovs thanks to event organizers who decided to group together to make unified rules, which were not, and still are not followed by every league or organization. It's a step in the right direction without a doubt, but especially when making decisions that affect so many players, it's even more important to make sure the decision is correct.
We have now seen Counter-Strike: Global Offensive played both with and without Molotovs, and the difference is like night and day. And even better, the players agree, too. It really begs the question: Are event organizers too proud to admit they were wrong? What other reason could there realistically be when just about no one wants to keep Molotovs in the game?
Molotovs were hardly used effectively as terrorists at ESWC. Most often we saw rich teams with tons of money throw Molotovs from banana to triple box in the B site of de_inferno_se, but they simply weren't used very effectively, or even often on the attacking side.
As counter-terrorists however, Molotovs, or rather Incendiary grenades, were used extremely effectively especially by Area51, n!faculty and VeryGames, based on the matches I caught. There is also little doubt that other teams will copy VG's upper Molotov defense on de_nuke_ve and perfect other aspects of using Molotovs as they head into the $45,000 tournament at DreamHack.
Much like with any other specific aspect of CS, some teams are better with Molotovs than others, but in every team they do have similar effects, and they do not please the customer, who in the way of advertisements during stream indirectly pay for the event through corporate sponsors.
VeryGames were able to lock down the upper bombsite of de_nuke_ve versus ESC Gaming with great use of Molotovs. After building up money, Cédric "RpK" Guipouy would Molotov squeeky door for a rush, while his teammates had Molotovs primed for both connector and hut when waiting for a later terrorist execution.
Contacted by HLTV.org, former member of the infamously rush heavy 69N-28E squad and current captain of WinFakt who are attending DreamHack Winter, Joona "natu" Leppänen said he thinks Molotovs slow down the game and limit players' natural ability, thus making the experience weaker, based on what he saw during ESWC. Even Patrik "cArn" Sättermon, long time in-game leader of fnatic went on to say that Molotovs reduce the game's speed and the dynamics in strategies.
Another unhappy spectator was Björn "THREAT" Pers who has watched both DreamHack Valencia, where Molotovs were not allowed, and ESWC from home: "I could tell such a huge difference in how teams played their terrorist sides at the two events. Molotovs make it virtually impossible to rush, because you don't want to take risks like that when you can be stopped by one Molotov, regardless of how good your strategy is, rushing is out of the question for the most part, and when teams have to take much longer every round, it takes an element of the game out and makes it less entertaining to me a viewer."
When questioned directly after their semi-final loss, Area51's players also confirmed VeryGames were able to completely shut down de_train_se with help of Molotovs, as it was impossible to rush outside. Later on the whole world saw the Frenchmen do the same to NiP, who barely scraped together four rounds
You can always argue that teams can counter this and it won't work forever, but why would we want to have them included in the first place? People wanted to try them, well, now we have, and we have arrived at a conclusion.
Molotovs, as I predicted months ago, are something that will only help the team that is already winning, win more, due to how expensive they are. They also make it much easier for teams to play 4-1 CT side setups on maps like de_inferno_se, as a single Molotov will slow the terrorists' attack for seven seconds.
Now imagine you're VeryGames and you're up 7-0; you have money to buy five Molotovs every round (and no, limiting the number wouldn't be fixing the problem, it would simply make it smaller - but why settle at that?) and it becomes even tougher for terrorists to win. Terrorists do not gain as much from the use of them as CTs do based on ESWC and logic.
This of course works two ways; If you watched VeryGames against Anexis you will know that the French partly fell to a tie because they kept double saving as CTs to get Molotovs, as opposed to attempting to win without them.
It obviously evens the issue out, but it's not what the spectators want to see by any stretch of imagination. We do not want rounds decided by a Molotov; we want players using their full skill with all weapons, not limited by something so grossly overpowered. Most of all, we don't want an item that only favors the team that is already winning.
"You can't have set strats or executions like you could in CS 1.6 or CS:S due to Molotovs. You can't use 45 seconds to setup for a strat that can be shut down with one $850 purchase at any time", said Sam "DaZeD" Marine of Area51.
Pers added: "with Molotovs the playstyle of my teams could never work because we could spend an hour going over a perfect execution of a strategy on any map where everything is timed and practiced to perfection, but all that hard work and preparation could be undone with a Molotov. It just doesn't make sense how much easier they make the game".
The natural way to counter defensive Molotovs was already used by n!faculty, one of the more clever teams with them, who would begin rounds with quick fake attacks all around the map, baiting the CTs' Molotovs out and allowing them to attack safely later on in the round. It works, but it doesn't serve the spectator in any way.
This is of course the evolution to the meta game and I could go into detail of how it can keep evolving for years in the worst case scenario, but no one wants the incredibly fast skill paced CS to die simply because of an item that doesn't need to be there in the first place. There is a much, much better option, and it can be done by either the players by boycotting the item, or by events disallowing their use.
Just to clear it up, we are not trying to get Valve to remove Molotovs from the game, as some of our users have suggested. They are likely to nerf them in the future, and it's one way to go about it. However, based on almost all the players actually competing in these events, as well as a large portion of the fans following and supporting them, it's hard to make a case for why Molotovs should stay in the game.
I think CS:GO can be a very interesting game to watch as a spectator and I would much rather see matches decided by teamwork, strategies and individual skill. I don't think Molotovs can be nerfed enough to not be overpowered yet still stay relevant. And if they are, do you really want to risk the biggest event so far in CS:GO's young history on something we don't have enough time to test properly in a competitive environment? It's time to leave them behind, where we left the Riot Shield nine years ago.
CS:GO's Money system
The second issue we're going to address today is the money system in CS:GO. For the most part it's almost identical to the proven system from the earlier Counter-Strike versions, but one problem has snuck its way in.
Remember that save round by 3D versus GameOnline (GoL) at CPL Winter 2002 that changed how Counter-Strike was played? Or the article written in late 2003 by Griffin "shaGuar" Benger which made Valve step in and change the system?
Well, clearly Valve does not, at last not completely, because they didn't keep the whole change for CS:GO. What I'm talking about is of course the amount of money terrorists receive after saving their weapons.
In Counter-Strike, you would receive $0 of money after saving your weapons as a terrorist, which means you'd have to consider how much your equipment is worth because for example, you wouldn't save $2,000 worth of equipment instead of receiving $3,400 for losing the round.
However, in CS:GO, you receive full money as terrorists. Now why is this a problem? Because teams not only can, but logically if they don't think they can win win a save round or take two guns out, they should save their weapons on save rounds.
Area51 was the only team to do this at ESWC, and it got them their tie versus mousesports on de_nuke_ve in the group stage, although it didn't pan out well in the semi-final against VeryGames.
By saving their weapons Area51 didn't allow mouz to cash in on their kills, meaning mouz lost anywhere from $1,500 to $4,500 in profit from the frags, as the round ended with basically no bullets fired.
That wasn't all of it though, as mouz had also purchased weaker SMGs in order to cash in on CS:GO's new money system with specific money rewards for different weapons, and were therefore stuck with the weak weapons, unable to upgrade for the first gun round.
This setup a situation where Area51 had $3,400-3,700 for a third round buy while mouz technically had won $6,500 from the two rounds, but spent $3,250 of it on four MP7s and a Bizon, thus forcing them to keep their SMGs for round three which they wound up losing, giving Area51 the next two rounds.
You can't blame Area51 for this or anyone else who chooses to do it while the possibility exists. It's in competitors' nature to find every available edge they can and use it to their advantage, as long as it's allowed and possible. That's how more and more teams will eventually start doing it, just like everyone copied the Christer "fisker" Eriksson jump onto the big red rock in CS 1.6's early days to gain a similar advantage.
Luckily there's an easy fix - an update to CS:GO from Valve that changes the money system so that terrorists who survive a round no longer receive money. It's important that his teammates still do, but only the people who save out, do not.
You don't of course have to take my word for it. Take the word of Spencer "hiko" Martin, member of Area51, who has so far gained the most out out of all teams from the system. Contacted by HLTV.org, Martin said he thinks it needs to be adjusted to how it was in CS 1.6 in order to keep the game more interesting for the viewers.
Once the change is implemented, we no longer have to watch teams save their glocks in terrorist spawn for almost two minutes, and play will resume to the faster, more enjoyable Counter-Strike we all enjoy watching. I mean, pending the Molotov situation.
What do you think of the changes suggested above? Would you like to see them implemented right now or possibly in the future? What would you change in CS:GO if you had a chance? Let us know in the comments below!
Post edited 2012-11-11 10:26:03
If they put in a bit more work (wich they will do I think) it can create a lot of epic action.
Even without giving the CT team too many advantage.
Post edited 2012-11-11 18:39:47
Post edited 2012-11-12 00:42:16
The money system the OP could be right about, but i think it needs more time for the meta-game to develop. Area 51 is the first team that we've seen do that on second round after losing the first and yes it was boring. Consider the opposing teams options, however. They can either not buy any guns and hope the T side doesn't call their bluff and push a bombsite or they can play safe and buy SMGs.
If they choose the latter and the team that's down 0-1 decides to do what area 51 did, the side with guns is then forced to make a coordinated push into the T spawn for frag money or wait it out and take economy hit.
This certainly has the potential for mind games and depending on how teams play it out, it could be more exciting than your average 3-0 start.
Always nice for viewer and player I think
grappling hooks too
hey, why not add lightsabers instead of knives? you know..for extra epic action
I hate molotov also right now. But why not first try to make it better before completely removing it ? It's here now anyway.
m4a4 it's 3100$ and it gives u full ammo :)
now every weapon is good to use in this game, I don't see why u should buy such a powerfull weapon second round or force a round to win(probably going to lose it)
Post edited 2012-11-11 10:55:45
limiting them doesn't help...even if you're aware of the possibility of the opposing team having 1 molotov...you'd never dare rushing small site cause you can get easily denied!
Playing them smartly would make comebacks impossible!
I still do not agree with banning them, the alternatives SHOULD be tried first before we go banning them.
The money system does need changing or at least tweaking.
Let's take a step back and tell if you are actually being serious here......
The fact that people simply want to ban and not try is rather stupid. The game needed refreshing, it was lacking, CS was getting boring, and this is an interesting mix. We are two months into the game, and theres still a long way to go before banning anything. We should be looking to try different scenario's.
Restricting to just Terriorists.
Limiting them to post 40 seconds into a round.
Restricting to just terrorists still screws over the game. they take B on D2 for example and can just lay one on doors at the crucial point of a retake, 7 seconds is all the time in the world in retaking. I want to see the CTs going in their getting sick headshots and pulling off a nice retake, not "Oh well guys theres a mollie on the doors lets go save now"
limiting them to post 40 seconds, if even possible would just make the terrorists camp out longer if they have the money advantage to use them or would make them try and get into the site quicker if the CTs had the money advantage. Boring stuff. and still stupid
Post edited 2012-11-11 11:06:57
so either change the DPS of it or the AOE. i feel like the molotov could work if it only slowed down your rush and/or made you take a little bit of damage. then it would be something refreshing and i agree with you, it's worth exploring the options before banning it out completely.
This is more what I am on about, I understand they are "game breaking" or "overpowered", but banning them is out of the question THIS EARLY into the game...
one guy holds a mollie under ladder for ramp, one guy in tower on de_nuke ct. where do you rush?
one guy has a mollie for mid on inferno, another guy for b. where will you rush?
same goes for every map.
Cannot comprehend how stupid you look with that post there...
you can fake if the other site's mollie guy moves, but you still can't rush directly.
If so... that ct is either clever, brave or stupid and willing to sacrifice himself....
if i had cancer and my doctor told me we can either try chemotherapy or instantly have surgery, which has a 100% success rate, i would go with surgery.
Wow... you are comparing a medical illness to a game.
Let's take a step back and tell if you are actually being serious here......
by: lurppis - HLTV.org#20
molotovs are cancer to cs:go. you want to make the tumours smaller, i want to remove them altogether. kapish?
As a CT, who of the team should buy the molo? How do you get to know where the T's will rush? You will have to either know your enemy very good or just predict it from the previously played rounds. It adds more tactical depth to the molotov usage.
if i hadn't already thought about nerfing it etc, why would i have written this article?
Thought that comment was directed at lurppis and not towards Gumpster.
I was the stupid one that particulair situation.
Post edited 2012-11-11 18:28:35
I swear it's only terrible players who want molotovs in the game so it's easier for them to win rounds.
We have tryed, we have pracced with them in more than 1 month and played a major event with them. They are destroying the game. Both for the playing teams, and for the crowd. Its suck playing with them, and it suks watching them being used in competetive matches. I could go one if there was some restrictions like 2 molos pr. round pr. team. That would maybe add a new tactical aspect, but 5 molotovs on a ct sided map with money control, comon...
Almost every af Lurppis arguments seems legit. So i hope the community/lan organizers will listen and read this, instead of working aginst the community, go work with them?
(apologize for my sometimes unsympathetic English)
Not sure how many times I have stated this. And the fact that you just agreed with me by saying this
" I could go one if there was some restrictions like 2 molos pr. round pr. team. That would maybe add a new tactical aspect, but 5 molotovs on a ct sided map with money control, comon..."
shows you haven't read what I have said.
W/E i still dont get it, seems like lan Organizers are working aginst what most people want. In the end i hope they will be removed or at LEAST restrited to 2 pr. teams. While maybe adding some changes to the money system, and implement tuscan and maybe season?
if you thought cs was getting boring maybe cs just isn't for you, it still has a large following (and no, molotovs won't make it as popular as sc2 or lol) and a majority of them do not enjoy them.
The feedback post ESWC in various threads on various community sites I have and frequently visited actually warmed up to molotovs.
"if you thought cs was getting boring maybe cs just isn't for you, it still has a large following (and no, molotovs won't make it as popular as sc2 or lol) and a majority of them do not enjoy them."
Not even sure what to say that.... so I won't bother.
Most of the feedback is negative from everyone, and even if some sourcenoobs like you think the molotov is a good idea, it doesn't matter - it's the TOP PLAYERS decision.
Gumpster, please shut up and go back to your bat cave cadred and annoy the people there not hltv.org.
How fucking elitist are you....
I still compete in the game, and changes that Valve implement affect the core playerbase that play.
Taking this quote into account, the opinions are "pro-biased".
And you really don't have to be a member at Mensa to realize 1 molotov is less overpowered than 5. You really gave us no useful ideas with ALL your replies, since every person with IQ above his own shoesize must've thought about these mollie limitations already. You're just annoying, and no, i won't reply in this thread anymore. I hope I made my point more clear to you now..
Post edited 2012-11-12 14:30:52
The fact that you also sat there and just said "1 molotov is less overpowered than 5" in a sarcastic way is stupid, and underlines your unfortunate IQ.
5 is overpowered yes. 2 is not. The arguments that people have brought to the table have been simple, "they make the game boring/slow", "they stop rushes dead".
That is the only arguments people have brought to the table, with 5 that is the case, it makes the game slow, and it stops rushes. Take away 5 and implement 2 means there is more likelihood for a rush to succeed like in old times.
Anyway, as you say, points have been made clear.
Post edited 2012-11-12 15:56:27
Molotov at this moment are just too overpowered.
Fix or adjust it and it will be fine.
Remove the slowdown effect, maybe even reduce it to 1 molotov a team. Maybe lower the damage hits. Maybe ... .
Simple things can easily fix this.
All they really need to do is swap the _SE maps with the _CE maps. Remove the crap on the floor that blocks you and remove the doorframe / wall blocks.
And please stop supporting csp since it took already so long to create the current version they have. I like that game aswell, but development is just too slow.
If they need +2 year to get where they are now, just forget about that game.
Post edited 2012-11-11 11:13:54
So I am looking at both sides of the argument and giving a well versed opinion on the matter as someone who massively enjoys competitive CS.
Was this last paragraph just a string of words which you just copied and pasted from another blog, not understanding what it means?
If you invite people to express their opinions, why in the name of jesu cristo you lash out at Gumpster and try to prove his OPINION wrong?
Btw. I agree with you on the molotov and money issue. Atleast incendiarys should be banned completely. Also money system should be changed as it were on 1.6. Although I prefer to see some weapons, like shotguns to get a some bonus money on fragging. It encourages teams to use weapons on a broader scale.
isn't that the point? he argues against my points, and then i argue against his. that's how debating works.
sometimes i feel like i should just stop posting things altogether like basically everyone else who writes stuff. more fun arguing against no one? :D
And you should not stop posting, because your articles have always been great. I am saying that your on the point argumentive writing does not seem to continue on the comment section below when someone expresses his contradictory opinions.
it's much easier to make a comparison, such as the cancer one, and hope people can connect the dots. unfortunately not everyone can.
Your "comparison" is a poor analog and just falls into the same category of "i am always right". There is no need for presumptuous comments about people not getting it.
Why do you invite people to share their thoughts, if you have a compelling need to always be right on subject which is a matter of opinion?
if you have a better idea or something i didn't go over yet, i will look into it.
everyone's invited to share their opinion, i'm simply trying to correct the ones that are most obviously wrong.
And good luck to Dreamhack winter. You and Redeye will make a good team shoutcasting.
You are narrow-minded and outdated, please try to exist with some new stuff instead of recycling your problem with anything new.
this isn't only my opinion, it's also me expressing the opinion of others.
Van Gogh said, "Conscience is a manís compass." If you heard him say that, would you reply, "OMG are you really comparing a conscience to a compass!?!?!"
Imo what make molotovs so deadly overpowered is that you are so slowed while moving in the fire that you take way too much damage from them and become an easy target. Removing that slowdown should make it all more balanced and yet more realistic (I don't really understand why people would slow down while walking into fire...)
i know what chances valve will make, i've posted them in the comments somewhere here. depending on how much damage the molotovs now will do if you run through them (i haven't tried the dreamhack beta yet) they will either still be overpowered, or just irrelevant because peopel can run through them.
if i'm playing vs esc and about to take b on inferno and i know neo is playing there by myself, i'm glad to have two people run over the molly and lose 50hp and get a 2v1 gunfight, plus if the spread is less, maybe i'll lose even less than 50hp.
The addition of molotovs on the other hand, does have positive aspects:
- brings variety/something new
- visually appealing
- development of new strategies to counter/dynamic changes to game plan to react
I agree that currently the positives of molotovs are outweighed by the negatives, but I don't see why taking the sledgehammer approach and removing them completely, is the only answer. Plenty of reasonable alterations to the molotov have been suggested, which should be explored first.
Having molotovs means no rushes...no igl in his right mind would ever risk a rushing to be just denied by 1 stupid 850$ molotov!
Restricting the molotovs to post 40-45s has its economical drawbacks!
Molotov allow a single player to cause so much damage and followed by a he grenade racking up a couple of kills without even showing himself!
You simply can't have something that cannot be countered!
Post edited 2012-11-11 14:18:46
those who have no clue about competitive aspect of CS (CS had the best gameplay, we know that) might like molotovs. sure they fun (new granade) but ask them what can they do vs a pro team using them. molotovs just have soooo many negative points that theyre just destroying the gameplay. oh and its normal for some people to like molotovs...if you've played a crap game and this one is a little less crapy, sure this game is excellent. i wonder whos thinking inside of the box now
Why not to temporarily ban them, wait for the updates where it's nerfed, try it in a non-official tournament and, if the problems are solved(I don't wanna quote the problems, it's obvious for everyone) they add it again?
I think there's no reason to keep dealing with something that actually is terrible for the competition waiting for valve to fix it, if we can simply put it apart, wait for the fix(if it comes and proves to be effective) and just then add it back
No molotovs are a good edition to a transition to ever more complicated competitive maps that require a player to hold more than one entrance.
With regards to mollies i think players are going to have to take the first step like they did with the riot shield. The problem is some teams clearly as outlined in your article are better than other teams at using them at the moment so they will potentially be obliged to not using them (at least at dreamhack winter.).
Money needs changing ASAP. its so damn boring and its at the most crucial stage of the game when people are deciding whether they like it or not by watching the matches.
i completely agree with the money system as well
Money system fix would be nice too.
There is literally nothing you can do to counter a well placed molotov, you have to wait it out.
They do far too much damage over too big of an area and have a slowing effect. Add to that key choke points on the map are already ridiculously narrow, you're shooting fish in a barrel.
Viva la revolution
Post edited 2012-11-11 10:58:23
csp is on it's way, news will come very soon
I'm imagining how hilarious the game would be especially in important round. There will be no seriousness in that round when a terrorist carrying a bucket full of water with bare hands.
Extinguisher grenades what was mentioned in news:
He Grenade and Smoke Grenade can extinguish flames but not fully, it's all about grenade type.
So the better option could be "Liquid nitrogen grenade aka LNG".
Post edited 2012-11-11 12:49:46
TT should buy ladder to get on balcon in inferno! Towers would be useless then ^^.
Or what about diging a tunel from spawn to bombside... Dat would be better ninja then Spawns one.
That way we could attract minecraft players and incidental moles to play cs:go !
Post edited 2012-11-11 14:01:13
Post edited 2012-11-11 14:22:31
And for the sake of Counter-Strike's being in eSport, and particularly at stacked offline events, we DO NOT want to make the game slower. Instead the game should be made faster to make it more likely for organizers to execute great tournaments, which is already damn difficult in Counter-Strike.
One thing that I believe you forgot to bring up in this nice piece are the differences in the monetary reward depending on which weapon that was used when fragging.
I understand that this is one way to push players to use a wider range of weaponry , over the very few rifles and pistols that were ever bought in CS1.6 the last 7-8 years.
I have no problem seeing this setting activated on public servers running casual mode, but for the competitive part this will mess up the game completely, and causing some ridiculous situations.
Teams will for example do everything they can to kill off opponents with pistols/shotguns/SMGs/knife when the moment arises, such as in anti-eco vs. glocks(if T now decides to attack at all). This may even cause CTs to run away from terrorists as it's more beneficial if your team mate with a shotgun/SMG gets the kill. This will of course mean reduced game speed, and also more likely tournaments will not run on time.
I'm still to understand the math behind the CS:GO money system better, but I expect this to cause an imbalanced money situation to the team winning the pistol round, making the game less dynamic, and also less likely that the opponent will have a decent chance buying deagles / dropping AKs successfully round 2. I could be wrong on this one, but it will be a complete nightmare counting cash and I think CS is complicated as it is already, simplifying it is the key along with making it faster.
Just my thoughts!
Post edited 2012-11-11 11:23:00
i think every weapon should give you the same mount of money for a frag, and as valve has implemented cvars to make it possible, it's another thing tournament organizers could actually make happen easily if they agreed that was the way to go.
+i would change movement, maps a little bit (move cars,some area is to small) and change a little weapon models (mk is so chubby and awful-no silencer,ak47 is ok but it could be better)
- molotovís fire is now extinguished by smoke grenades and HE explosions.
- deployed smokes now deny molotov detonation and spreading.
- molly fire now spreads a bit faster and not quite as far.
- getting hurt by molotov fire no longer slows you down.
not sure which one(s) they end up going with, but it's still a downgrade from just removing them altogether.
either too powerful, or irrelevant.
Post edited 2012-11-11 11:57:42
Post edited 2012-11-11 14:55:02
The smoke nade idea is decent though.
anyway, I think that mol's should be banned for competetive mode (like Zeus x27) and should added only for casual mode and nobody changes my mind, but mol's in competetive mode is a complete retardism and nonsense which slows the game and makes some very random and ridiculous situations
Post edited 2012-11-11 12:12:20
It does make T side on any map a lot more stressful, but we always forget that we can use them as T side too..
A lot of people complain about how the fact they lock down a site and its hard to get in, I've found numerous molotovs which can be used to force ct sides into a very defensive style of play or to be forced into pushing you depending on where u throw them and the cts positioning.
On inferno I play small site as ct, and i've found it a lot easier to hold that with molotovs, but against a lot of teams ive found 2 molotovs that can be used that FORCE ct's to play in certain areas of that small site, and to be honest it works.
I can see why everyones arguing against molotovs, but no one has managed to argue how powerful they are as T side.
One just not simply IP bans 74113j.
volcano theory about money system.
If you think that this would be imbalanced for the game, then maybe Counter-Terrorists should have their own unique weapon as well :p.
This could be a viable alternative solution.
Other than that, I think Molotovs the way they are now, don't help competitive game and like you said, they slow it down, destroying the strategies of the game.
I agree with what you said about the money system.
It was an interesting article to read by the way.
and the molo's?
IF valve choose to let them in:
and remove slow
il bunnyhop trough it in 2 sec
got 99 problems but a molo aint 1
Remove completely flame grenades.
Remove/Reduce slowdown effect and maybe the price.
Remove/Reduce completely slowdown effect, reduce the price and allow 1/2 flame grenades per team.
New server-side command to disable molotovs and incgrenades for some leagues restrictions.
About the camping on the T spawn it should be forbidden on tournaments.
Post edited 2012-11-11 12:24:31
Moneysystem has to be fixed.
Post edited 2012-11-11 13:17:24
Really nice written Lurppis, lets see Valve's movement now...
Post edited 2012-11-11 12:45:43
the Terrorists wont get Money for Saving anymore.
Also the smokebug (throwing a he Grenade trough a smoke ) will be fixed
with the New update.
Even playing vs teams using molotovs all time (for example on ct side of inferno when they are cutting off mid and bannana with molotovs at the beggining of the round), that can be easily countered just by using n!faculty style or just waiting close to spawn for 7 seconds (which is not a big deal if you ask me).Imagine situations where you are CT @ inferno 1v3 and c4 is planted and you need to retake.
In most of situations so far i saw 1 or 2 players camping in big pit or house in order to make a crossfire.And now imagine how it will be easier for you to cut them off with 1 molotov and smoke.
After all that's just my opinion, and i find them nice and new interesting part of this new game, and solution for them, maybe can be, rising their price to 1700$ at least.
Post edited 2012-11-11 12:48:23
1. They take longer to actually spread out, this would stop the pre-pinned reaction molotov (like the guy half peaking into banana on inferno or into the hut on nuke).
2. Remove or lower the slowing effect allowing people to literally run through it or jump through it.
If this didn't work, then remove them. I'd like to see if they 'could' work before we return to "1.6 was perfect lets just make it the same'.
But then again, why re-invent the wheel, just fucking ban them.
Post edited 2012-11-11 12:53:14
Or maybe when you have armor, you take less damage... This would actually cut out all the useless 5man indian line rushes as well. (Which are also a waste of time).
Now molotovs will only be used in mid-late game when attacking or securing a bombsite, making the match more interesting (possibly).
eehhehehehe, dreamer believer believer
Remove de_inferno_se, replace it with _CE!!!!!
They just don`t work in counter strike. My blog about them there:
-reduce the time from 7seconds to 4seconds
-remove the slow down effect through the flame
-make them 500$ pricier
-and limit them only 2 per team
i think those fixes should be enough for molotovs/incgrenades
and about the money system
make it like 1.6(shags edition :P) it is the fairest system and also the logical one
you want to have valve update them next week and allow them to have a deciding role in a $45k tournament a week later? that's ridiculous
Molotovs are enough reason for me to NOT follow that tourney :[
I don't wanna watch Team VeryMollies dominating everyone before NiP stops them!
i'm also trying to work with dreamhack and the teams attending whom i could reach out to in a couple of days to ban molotovs in the tournament, we'll see if that works out or not.
My vote goes to banning them until they are calibrated (if ever). But let's not go out and ban stuff as permanent solutions. Problem here lies in that to be sure if they are calibrated enough is to use them in competetive play. I guess Valve will have to cough up some money to host some tournaments where they can experiment a bit ;)
but REMOVE molotov from entire game
also completely agree about the money system
nice post lurp
they should've done it @ eswc also :/
Post edited 2012-11-11 13:50:28
Unless you mean for cts taking over c4 site after it is occupied by terrorists, however problem is that molotovs makes CT side OP when they already holds advantage without having molotovs in game.
but i definetely dont want them removed, i;m happy to see something other than the same thing we were watching for years.
Post edited 2012-11-11 14:13:32
By allowing such idling around, precious time is beign wasted and spectators aren`t very happy to watch as well. It can come down to every match taking too long and therefore there is increased risk for postponing other matches for later.
who could make a fkn rush when seeing this fkn shit mixed with some smoke i throwed
so imho the fireball, for me huh, it is a gift
30bullet ever strongest akspray
then nothing left
all gone with the fire
i am sorry but if you try again it will happen again and it will make me happy again
Make them a high-rish/high-reward strategy. They're pretty much useless for the Terrorist, so I guess keeping the price on that side won't be a problem. But this would also require some tweaking on the money system, obviously.
Post edited 2012-11-11 14:10:37
if cs:go players want really change things, you should collect massive real name list of signatures of people who want things to change and send that to valve. none of these +1 comments here don't help because you cannot actually prove that they are not "some user account clones" that for example lurppis would have created (see difference: im not saying that he would done that; valve just cannot know that for sure).
this is totally useless just repeat these self-evidence time after time like lurppis have been doing. people like him have done so since cs:go came out and nothing(molotov&money system) have changed.
Simple way to solve problem is gathering real name signatures list for valve. they will take it seriously, but will valve take this article or +1 comments here seriously? answer is: No they don't.
Post edited 2012-11-11 14:21:41
i did on the other hand contact as many top teams as i could in the past three days and send a list with statement from them to dreamhack, whom will evaluate whether or not that is enough to ban molotovs at dreamhack.
ps. you think valve cares about 5000, 10000 or 20000 "real name signatures"? i can promise you they don't. this isn't a "valve" problem, this is a tournament organizer problem.
And i didn't claim that you said that this article would be for valve. I said that if players want change things, they have to contact valve with huge petition.
This whole article is just pointless, because almost every cs:go players agree with these self-evidence already. It's pointless to write article like this to hltv readers, because only total idiot wouldn't already understood/knew those things you wrote in this article.
And it wouldn't be tournament problem (molotovs) if you/players would understood to send massive petition for valve. It's proved already that they do change if enough many people want to change something in game. You wouldn't have molotovs anymore in cs:go if you would done that.
Now you just wrote self-evidence article
as i said, i sent a petition from players to dreamhack; i'm not interested in fighting with valve because i've already deemed that fight lost, i'd rather deal with people who are reachable and might do something about it.
i don't want valve to fix molotovs, i want them banned from competition. there's a huge difference.
10k views and 230 comments have nothing to do with thing is some article self-evidence or not. People here (hltv.org) clearly like to read CS:GO articles and comment them. Especially if they agree with self-evidence matter. And especially if there is something wrong with CS:GO, it's their (mostly 1.6 players) chance to say once again here how bad the game is.
Post edited 2012-11-12 06:54:52
you clearly overestimate yourself and your actions.
even 8 years old could done that article easily, could easily joined hltv.org and could publish article like this, but even most 8 years old children understand that writing and publishing article full of self-evidence matters is just idiotic and waste of time
Post edited 2012-11-12 14:00:52
Seems that in this case even every 8 years old children got it, but someone not
Post edited 2012-11-12 17:41:53
99% people are just clicking this article because it has topic: "Molotovs & money system in CS:GO"
Not because what you did write in this article, because they dont know until they open it.
And about comments. In this site most people like to criticize CS:GO always when possible and this article is perfect chance for that.
Just test. Add just one porn based "article topic" to hltv.org site and you will get easily 10 times more hits than this article did.
Still: making this article was waste of time
Post edited 2012-11-12 17:53:52
im pretty sure that if hltv.org owners would only care about hits that much, they would made porn site or site about more popular things than cs.
Keeping internet site open is really cheap nowadays. Even site sized hltv.org with all databases. No need for ad partners. So even without your articles they could easily keep this site up without any problems.
If they really would like to get profit from ads, they should do totally different type of site like porn site or for example site that tells news about more popular things than cs
you just wasted your time and you still don't get it hehe
i'm sure it's really easy and cheap to become a very popular pornsite.
I said _one_ way to get easily more profit via website ads. I didn't say that anyone should do that way. It is just one way to get more money via ads.
But if you want to know how to get easily money, this topic is for you: http://www.hltv.org/?pageid=18&threadid=206677
and the molotovs are so boring, if you are going slowly and an opponent with luck throw a molotov jjust where you are, you have to run out like a retard... that's pretty bad
the money system should be the same as 1.6
and please read Shaguar's article, it is amazng how similar both situations are.
if the developers/tournament organizers keep instisting on using molotovs, they could at least limit it to only terrorists. some kind of a compromise, tho it still sucks.
adding a few opinions of ex-source-players would strengthen your argument :) just saying, 90% of players already agree with you anyway, but the organizers dont
gol won the round after losing 3 people (iirc), but had no money on the next round and lost the round, and got demolished in the half, losing the grand final.
next year every team tried to basically save out every second round of the half, and back then the round time was longer as well (2:30 or 3:00) making it extra boring to watch.
in 2003 teams like team9 or sk figured out places like the big red rock to boost up on as well, so eventually they would do that and there'd be no way for the cts to kill them.
Valve has to fix this right away before this becomes a huge problem in GO aswell. This is probably even more gamebreaking for a spectator then the molotov.
Post edited 2012-11-11 16:45:34
Post edited 2012-11-11 15:10:50
Money price can be fixed via valve not molotov.
Why can't the pro scene get on a common decision and stop using Molotovs [kinda protest against it]
verygames was good in valencia, they didn't need molotovs. nip was good at eswc, they didn't need to use molotovs vs others who did.
if nip starts losing at some point they will just start abusing them like everyone else, the best teams are the best teams for a reason, and will likely continue to be no matter what shit rules we make (e.g. allowing molotovs at eswc didn't stop nip)
-Increase the cost of molotovs to 1500$
From the statements u made above, the best teams are best for a reason so PLAY HARD GO PRO. Pointless removing it completely.
//Not supporting this cuz im a semi-pro/ wannabe pro.. I jus want to see more ppl playing and more competition and it shouldnt end in a stalemate like how 1.6 was. To be honest banning riot shield was stupid cuz 9 years ago ppl didn't have the brain or skill to over come it, that shield is useless...tell me if u cant kill a person with riot shield and a pistol (2.5k to buy??) Similarly , think about this down the lane.
Lurppis, if you have contacts at valve, now is the time to send them this article. :D
There is a little mistake in the text, it says "VeryGames were able to lock down the upper bombsite of de_nuke_se" I guess it's nuke_ve :-)
But i don't like molotovs!
The suggested money system change also needs to happen. Although I think that the varying kill rewards from different weapons also needs to be normalised to $300 per kill (instead of $900 for shotguns, $600 for smgs, $50? for awp etc).
Money is kinda in valve's hands - although I think there may be a console command for it? Or is that only with sv_cheats enabled?
Mollies are completely in the hands of the tournaments - and if they dont act then its completely in the hands of teams/players. If tournaments keep allowing them, and all top teams seem to pretty much agree they're not suitable, then they all need to agree not to use them (and hope to god no one is a massive fuckwit and uses them on a crucial round or something haha).
btw i want know how many ppls are thinking that molotovs should be banned (as i think too)
1. remove molotovs
2.not remove molotovs
Not only the save-rewards are just bullshit, also the different killrewards of surtain guns are out of this world. U'll get 900$ for a kill with a mag7 and only 50$ for an awp kill. what this does is make the awp almost completely useless.
Let Valve change all the above and add the silencer... =D
PS. It's not for nothing that 1.6 sticked with us for 12 years+
Post edited 2012-11-11 16:46:32
agree with the article
About helicopter, very good idea. I mean that same helicopter which takes ct to spawn could just take them to T spawn, so we can start shooting them right away.
Would be so funny if you forgot to replace Heaven Media Ltd with Hltv.org
// Western Wolves
Must disagree about fully removing Molotov's, eg if something is too powerful, it just would require tweaking (eg if AK47 would take 200hp per hit, it would not mean only thing can be done is remove whole gun)
My suggestions would be:
-Molotov's are only allowed by Terrorist, remove Incendiary Grenade
-Allow user to buy either HE or Molotov
-Remove slowdown effect
-Tweak lasting time, damage received and area it spreads.
Tweaking all those will make sure Molotov will not be too powerful, but also making sure it does not become useless.
But also Valve..etc could add following:
-If you fall too high and have purchased molotov, it will drop&break and put's player on fire
-Make random "dut" grenades, eg you throw he/molotov/smoke/flash, but they will not blow.
-What more "stuff" you carry, more it slows you down. eg M249+bomb+all grenades+vest = your run half of speed what it would be just with knife.
Post edited 2012-11-11 17:46:02
that makes physically no sense xD
but still you got funny ideas, but i guess not that suitable for pro gaming..
-Allow user to buy either HE or Molotov
-Remove slowdown effect
-Tweak lasting time, damage received and area it spreads.
those points are good for sure.
I don't disagree with what's said, I'm just tired of hearing this rubbish from people who are completely irrelevant and don't even play the game casually.
i don't see how i am completely irrelevant if i'm one of the main writers of the biggest coverage website for the game, and have a history of playing a similar game professionally for about as long as anyone else.
you are of course titled to your opinion, but i find it funny people who play a game for fun or in some really low level league they know better, especially given the fact i always ask people who actually do play for opinions, instead of just writing my own. :D
Post edited 2012-11-11 19:51:29
i would like to see some changes in 'classic competative play' for example there should be an option to continue playing with your team if you win a game. a new enemy would be searched if everyone agrees.
the ranking system should be completed with clear lvls instead of paintings so you can see where you are at lvl 0 - lvl 20.
there should be a ladder system for teams competing in a similar system.
there should be a option to vote for someone that is cheating. Only for someone at your own team. the system could be designed like this: if you are suspected of cheating in 80% of your last 10 games you are banned for 1day or something like that. (i dont think valve has enough capicity to check out every player but these ppl fuck up the system).
there could be an option to search for defusewars ALL or defusewars on competitive maps so the non-smoggy versions and not aztec or vertigo. <- this could be editted as new maps get introduced in the LAN-scene/pro-scene
molotovs: remove them or make them 4500$ (as lurrpis said they make a 4-1 setup possible caz of extra rotationtime so this is superefficient)
decoys: could be more fun if they would shoot a bit more random so there wouldnt be so abvious
a build in 'irc like' war search chat?
just wanted to mention:
1.) its nice to read posts on here (likely the most retarded community in the net) that are worth reading. seems like the kidz prefer "neo>all" than have an usefull discussion.
2.) its funny how so many people on here think they have to explain lurppis the game. he is one of the only -very few- high level cs players who doesnt refuse to even talk with this retarded community.
i am not into this game and 1.6 is/will be the last cs i play so i am not to much into this.
i have watched the first big clash of vg-fnatic and some other games, it bores my as of.
moneysystem is dumb of course, expect this to be fixed soon (dont even know why they did it like this in the first place)
molotovs are of course op. everything is said about this (in the article and some posts)
limiting doesnt work also. it just causes teams to make their setups according to their molotov buys. (like lurppis said in the article)
@lurppis although i can rarely understand why you do this work here, i highly appreciate it.
one of the very few reasons to still visit this kiddy site.
coinsystem has to go, its terrible.
now u can counter a bad rotate on inf with 1 molo or play 1 man "on" B. we all know how it works. i think many ppl should do somthing else with there time instead of waiting till the game changes to something that is never gonna happen.
cts can still pick up a molo from a dead t
this and/or halve the dmg so you basically CAN run through them
this IS after all a NEW cs game... dont like it??... play 1.6 or source
The logical thing, is that everybody faces everybody on a group play, your system is based on seeds, the old system can be ruined by teams that lose on purpose, your system is ruined by it's own conception, a 'weak' team play against the major favorite and that's it, they're already fucked up. While that, the 'medium' team won't ever face that team. It's 100% based on seeds and it's not fair at all.
I don't want to keep talking about this, because I don't think any other tournament will ever use this system anyway.
Post edited 2012-11-11 20:29:52
i said irrational and illogical because people don't understand what i said above, or the fact that two matches are not of equal value (hence the ridiculous outcry of a team losing vs another in round 1 then winning round 3 and advancing over them).
the weak team can still beat the #2 and #3 teams after that and advance, just like in the normal group stage setup.
If not thrown with careful prescision and timing against skilled teams its *Dutt dutt*/AK/Colt - sound (etc) and there you go - 850$ blown right up in the air for yor opponent.
Nerf these things slighty to begin with -duration, radius, damage over time (epecially as long you are moving/-jumping), slowingeffect (close to zero or zero), fire and smoke effects from mollies, throwing speed.
Put inferno_ce in the standard competitive map rotation. Train is also in need of a new version, and there you have it, molotovs now a balanced item. :D
Post edited 2012-11-11 19:30:57
Post edited 2012-11-11 19:56:01
Get the old Counter Terrorist start pistol back "usp" and the old colt "m4a1" with silencer since most people are used to play with silencer and because it gives the player a good "feel" while playing with it.
Money system needs to be changed to and i would like to see that players get to buy ammo themselfs, would make the game alot better.
Awp kill award - I dont know if they have changed it, but when you consider that the awp costs 4750$ why do you only get 50$ for a kill? There is just no way that you can earn the money back from frags, so to be able to keep playing with awp you would have to save almost each round with the awp, so you dont lose it.
Defuse kit, why do it need to cost 400$ ? Before you could buy grenades and weapon and still be able to buy defuse kit because you still got 200$ left to spend.
Kill award system - 1 thing i would like to see is that they change the money system for weapon kills, 300$ from a kill no matter what weapon the frag is made with.
about the awp only giving $50 is ok... since it rewards a good awp... how?.... by not dying! = no need to buy more awps. you get the most money from winning rounds anyway.
continuing to the $300 only thing... i like the idea about you get more for a "bad" weapon, making low buys a god investment
the def kit... its a good thing to have it at $400. why?... becus now you have to buy them in a smart way now instead of the standard everyone "just" buys one... when even have one if you can buy one every round? then just make deffing to 5 sec permament..
the molotov is a cool new thing, but its just too powerfull atm.. but valve are making a update here before dreamhack where they have nerfed the molotov big times, so it becomes allmost not woth bying (fribergs words)
Me as a spectator I want to see players in CS to carry guns and shot from it. I want to see big highlights with f0rest shooting five one bullet headshots to win a round.
I do NOT want to see a player who blinded throw molotov and win a game. Or I dont want to see two players throwing their grenades to deny each other grenades. What highlights we will get ? It is not tactical even interesting, it is not counter-strike its volley-strike.
Please do NOT try to change counter-strike u have already changed it a lot.
sry 4 my eng
Post edited 2012-11-11 20:45:09
Seriously, keep it. I said keep it
Post edited 2012-11-12 00:48:42
Molotovs gone! and the money system fixed!
If valve does not consider molotovs, boycott!
It's a new game , its not 1.6 anymore , I don't think we should argue about this new thing , but to get on with it and make tactics considering molotovs firs .
The molos need to go and the money system is bullcrap :)
reduce - speed 30 %
- dmg 50 %
- reduce cost i.e 400-500 $
or molotov takes 2 slots of granades
or you have to choose HE/molotov only 1 of them
they will slow down rush but not 100% stop it
Post edited 2012-11-12 09:59:13
What the game needs is to allow us to buy Fire suits (like a better-stronger-more expensive full body kevlar)
No molotovs in comdedetive gameplay, easy!
Lets make this game what it should be.
molotovs is a Joke! so funny~~~
There is no way to nerf molotovs without making them uninteresting.
Just remove them completely.
Post edited 2012-11-15 00:20:59
I think the problem is simply that the concept of a molotov/incendiary in a game like CS is fundamentally too powerful. To be able to deny an area for the enemy to move for any period of time is just game-breaking. Normally, it would be possible to reduce the strength of something, or tweak it, etc., to keep it in the game, but in this case it just so happens that it won't work for this particular item in question. Unless the item is nerfed into oblivion (i.e. being non-functional in its role) it will still be game-breaking as long as it's serving its role in some function.
If you were to nerf it though, I think the idea of having an HE or a molotov (but not both) is an excellent idea. Reducing the duration is also a good idea. Something like 3-4s maximum would be acceptable.
In any case, I think as it stands it needs to be banned immediately and sent back to the drawing board. To all the players with good intentions, we respect you, but take the recommendations of the pro players to heart on this one.
Also, I wanted to bring up an earlier poster's excellent comment (entfy): a big reason why molotovs are the way they are is the incredible bottlenecks present in our current set of maps. Something to ponder on.
Post edited 2013-01-17 10:05:14