INSHOCK2LDLC White1Virtus.pro2CPLAY0EventMaps / statsinferno (16:10)cobblestone (16:13)OtherNo demo - MatchpageHellRaisers2XPC0EventMaps / statscache (16:2)overpass (16:5)OtherNo demo - MatchpageAcer2GPlay0EventMaps / statsmirage (16:12)cobblestone (16:13)OtherNo demo - MatchpageTitan0NiP2
We often talk about the lack of true majors in Counter-Strike: Global Offensive, something that definitely affects the level of competition and makes some suffer more than others.
In Counter-Strike 1.6 the majors have been most CPL Dallas events up until winter 2006, almost all ESWCs up until 2010, Intel Extreme Masters World Championships after season two and the WCG events after 2006.
Of course there have also been countless other events; e-Stars, WEG and WEM seasons, IEM Global Challenges, GameGunes, DreamHacks and WSVGs just to name a few of them.
What makes the former events stand out from the bunch is the prestige and the meaning they carry for the winners, as well as the hefty prize purses that were attached to them.
There is little doubt winning a truly global tournament with teams from Asia, both South- and North America and Europe, with a first place prize in the neighborhood of $50,000 means more than a GameGune championship.
That's not a shot at GameGune or any of the other events, which were also great as part of the series, but the fact is the major events have always been what made Counter-Strike so exciting.
Think back to the most memorable wins, and it's very likely they were at the majors, whether it's Pentagram's win over NoA with 6,000 live spectators in Paris or Na`Vi breaking out at IEM IV World Championship with a win over fnatic in the grand finals.
The difference for spectators
So far what we've seen in CS:GO's short history is teams peaking at different times. Virtus.pro's peak came at SLTV StarSeries V Finals in early April, NiP's probably at Copenhagen Games.
Quantic showed their best efforts at ESEA Season 13 Finals in late April, VeryGames' most impressive play took place in late June as they won the RaidCall EMS One Summer season.
As a spectator I want to see the very best go up against one another, in tip top shape. I don't want to see a tired NiP roster drop a series to a super motivated Virtus.pro.
I want there to be so much at stake that the only conceivable option for any competitive player is to do everything in their power to be in the best form possible, to peak simultaneously.
That is where the majors come in. Majors in Counter-Strike are like the final exams in school. You might do just enough to get by throughout the semester, but you'll likely ramp up your studying right before the all deciding exam.
You might say professional players should always be motivated and show up in the best form, but that's simply not a realistic expectation. These people aren't robots after all.
As a fan, I truly hope NiP, VeryGames and Astana Dragons all put in a hundred hours in the final two weeks leading up to DreamHack Bucharest and we see them all play the best they can, but will we?
A total of $15,000 will be given out in Romania, which means the winner will get close to one third of what NiP are favored to win in Dallas roughly a month earlier. Incentives aren't equal for all teams.
Astana Dragons will without a doubt put in as much work as possible to not only have a strong debut and impress their new Kazakhstani backer, but to show the world what they're capable of.
VeryGames are still looking for that elusive first victory over the Ninjas, and are likely more motivated as well, but who thinks NiP's motivation matches that of the others chasing their first win?
Did anyone truly feel like NiP played to the best of their abilities in Cologne? I didn't. I thought they were in average shape, and it wound up costing them the tournament win - that's why we don't rank VeryGames as number one in the world.
Any sport is the most fun to watch when the best are playing their best - that's why the playoffs are so interesting. Majors provide maximum incentives, pressure, and glory. It's all the best things about CS wrapped into one.
Majors as a player
As a player it was much more fun to practice for the major events, and if you had to sacrifice things like time with family and friends, it was definitely easier when you knew it was one of the big three (ESWC, WCG, IEM/CPL).
Different things motivate different people; for example I always looked forward to events in far away countries more, so if we were traveling overseas, it would also affect my motivation in some way.
Glory, prestige and money definitely affect every player. However, I don't think most players think of money in terms of its purchasing power, but rather as a measurement of the tournament's prestige. Here's Patrik "cArn" Sättermon's take:
"Speaking from my own experience as a player, the team and I always loved the hype around events that had teams from all the world represented. It was during these events that the fans had the opportunity to watch several styles of CS collide, and many talented players had their breakthroughs at these arenas where not only the best team of a region was determined, but the entire world," started Sättermon
Sättermon, a two-time major event winner and a member of the world's number one team at a couple of occasions clearly also preferred the major events over regular tournaments.
He also confirms my point from the paragraph above; only at major events are the world's best teams crowned. You can become the best through other events like fnatic did in 2007, but I can't imagine it being as rewarding.
Here is what one of the all time biggest winners on the grandest stages of tournaments, Wiktor "TaZ" Wojtas with six major titles in Counter-Strike 1.6 had to say:
"I feel like we were the kind of a team always looking for a challenge, and big prize money. It's not like we didn't try to win at smaller events, we just loved the major ones, the audience, the pressure, the fame...
"I remember that before last IEM in 2012, we just knew that we needed to play our hearts out. All of us knew that it would be the last major event of CS 1.6 and we wanted to prove a point, which I hope we did. I love emotions, and when I see people cheering for us, it just gives me extra power, and joy to play the game. It makes it 'beyond the game' - you might know the song," said Wojtas.
That basically sums up what I've spent almost 900 words trying to explain. Wojtas' teams were a classic example of people able to elevate their level of play and peak at the right times.
Heading into ESWC 2007 they had struggled for a while, only to pull off a major victory. Same goes for ESWC 2008, and World Cyber Games 2009 where they won their second gold medal.
Even as late as 2011 and 2012 when the Poles were much more consistent as a whole, they still managed to win both WCG and IEM, only to struggle in the coming months.
If you followed the scene back then, it's clear the level of play didn't rise - it was simply a case of there not being enough incentives for the competitors to put forth their best effort.
Another team known for winning multiple major events is Natus Vincere, who won all three of them in 2010, and added one more, the most competitive of them left, in 2011.
A player from Na`Vi who has stepped up with some clutch plays at the right times is Arseny "ceh9" Trynozhenko. This is what he had to say regarding major events:
"Well, a big tournament is a big motivation. Because when you are getting older you begin to think about future, family things that are connected with money especially if you are a professional gamer, a guy that lives on tournament prizes and salary that a cybersport organization pays you.
"And it's really important for your motivation to play in HUGE championships because in your mind and in the heads of a lot of fans these tournaments will always be remembred. You can ask a lot gamers what tournaments they remember and they will answer WCG, IEM, ESWC.
"Great tournament - a big responsibility, easier to practice, better feelings when you reach a goal. It is easier to find a common ground with teammates because everyone knows that the next tournament will be very serious and all the five guys will try to find a compromise, because the stakes are too high and you can not go wrong," added Trynozhenko.
Remember the time Christopher "GeT_RiGhT" Alesund cried after their grand final loss at WCG 2009? Or when the Poles shed some tears of happiness while Alesund kneeled on the ground after the semi-final of IEM V World Championship?
Recall how Natus Vincere broke out in the scene with their consecutive major tournament wins at IEM IV World Championship and ESWC 2010? All of these things happened because the matches in question were at major events.
You don't see people crying because of how much effort they've put in and how disappointed they feel after a $10,000 tournament, with the next one already looming ahead in a month. It just doesn't happen.
These kinds of emotional outbursts, which Michal "Carmac" Blicharz said reminded him of real sports, only happen when everything is at stake and the next comparable event is months away. At the majors.
It doesn't seem like anyone is willing to shell out enough cash for a major tournament, and for all we know we might never get another major unless viewership rises.
Although impossible, I would actually argue it'd be better for the scene to combine four events à la RC EMS One into one grand major, with over $100,000 up for grabs, as there would still be enough other events for the calendar year.
"I appreciate that the fault or problem doesn't solely lay on tournament organizers. In today's eSports, game developers are required to participate and interact with the community in order to make it as a successful eSport title, and I truly think that has been a failing from Valve with their release of Counter-Strike:GO," said Sättermon.
As fnatic's Chief Gaming Officer, the tournament structure is surely something Sättermon also thinks about, and I tend to agree with him that Valve holds all the keys to Counter-Strike's success.
The fact smaller tournies with more exposure spread all year round would never combine is why even a fraction of DotA2's support from Valve shifted towards their marque FPS game could make such a massive difference.
Imagine if Valve conservatively hosted four tournaments with a $100,000 prize purse, $50,000 for first. That wouldn't even be one fourth of their stake in a single The International event.
With IEM clearly having passed up on Counter-Strike for a second straight year and ESWC fallen into relative mediocrity compared to their golden days, we currently have no savior in sight.
"It's quite frustrating to observe how tournament organizers whom used to run global scale events in Counter-Strike, are now backing away from supporting Counter-Strike as much as they used to do," finished Sättermon.
Events like ESEA and DreamHack are doing a great job, but even their events can't be considered majors. The only logical choice to play host to a major event right now is Valve.
We need Valve to step in and offer CS:GO even a small piece of the pie that is eaten by DotA2 right now. We need it, and we need it soon. These events already blend in together.
Follow HLTV.org's @lurppis_ on Twitter.
eSports used to be something that naturally grew out of the skill of a game and wouldn't have to have millions of dollars thrown at it. LoL has such a ridiculously low skill cap it's disgusting, I'm just glad that everyone who's involved in SC2 and DoTA knows that, so when Riots money goes the game will have 0 support.
NaNiWa was flaming LoL on twitter the other week about how easy it is and Joe 'Corporate Shill' Miller was there trying to defend it.
Post edited 2013-07-23 18:28:18
Post edited 2013-07-23 18:43:51
People missjudge LoL due the hate they have inside their minds.
LoL is pretty much this "Easy to play, hard to master".
Post edited 2013-07-23 18:48:34
"LoL killed esports" Get a grip.
Post edited 2013-07-23 18:54:19
First off I don't have the time to learn 100+ heroes, their abilities, strengths and weaknesses, item builds and just generally spend time playing a game I don't enjoy. I've spent time learning this stuff for DoTA but I actually enjoy playing it.
Secondly, just because it's easy it doesn't mean it's not competitive, as shown week in, week out of the LCS. All these 'pro' teams have reached the top of mediocre skill cap and can all beat each other on any given day, one week a team is on the verge of folding because they are getting raped and in a few days they stomping teams that statistically should be better than them.
Post edited 2013-07-23 19:15:58
Post edited 2013-07-23 19:56:06
I'm just telling you why I'm not playing LoL at a professional level.
Post edited 2013-07-23 22:04:30
If it was easy everyone would be pro, what the hell are you even talking about. All these pro teams can beat each other on a given day? How come the Koreans dominate LoL and always beat America and Europe if they're all just mediocre skilled and can beat each other on the same given day +-.
Tell me your theory a bit further cos so far it seems all bullshit to me.
But the biggest difference is SC2 and DoTA2 would of been successful regardless of support from the developers because of the competitive nature of the game.
We will truly know when eSports is dead when the main titles are LoL, WoT and CoD.
Valve put 3 mio. USD into the current prizepool for TI3, so tell me how Riot pays the Players to play the game!
regardless of the game.
"LoL killed eSports"
LoL took a massive shit on the spirit behind eSports. Instead of spending time making a competitively viable game just spend more money after release at tournaments and that's what makes an esport in this day and age.
Post edited 2013-07-23 19:44:04
Joe Miller is a sellout because he actually enjoyus the game and casting it, therefore defends it, damn hes such a bad person!! Now for real, you should really learn about what your saying before making a complete fool out of yourself, its painfull to watch.
as long as the game is fun to watch and tournaments are huge in prizemoney. The teams are providing us entertainment while watching and makes u play that champion/game afterwards
Look at all these LoL fanboy faggots replying angrily to your posts.
Post edited 2013-07-26 15:02:52
It's not like what's wrong with the game is a mystery to me. I can identify them, I could even write an article about it. But such an article will never be taken seriously unless it's from a professional player, hence me trying to tease it out of you.
CS:GO with changes could be a fun game, maybe even as much as 1.6. But it doesn't look like that's gonna happen. Valve simply has no idea what they're doing. Need a person with clout to stand up, and force change. Otherwise it's gonna continue to slowly die.
Post edited 2013-07-24 10:02:24
Honestly, I think you would be surprised at the amount of people who would support you. There's a lot of people are very unhappy about the game, but have given up on voicing their opinion.
I have pretty much the same opinion, so I though something had changed and wanna know why :d
My main problem overall are the movements on this game, I can't even project myself playing a FPS without it, but I'm watching sometimes official matches and doing 1 or 2 games a week with some friends, and it's cool. I put a lot of hope in CSPromod but the community picked go.
Have a nice day mates.
And for what it's worth, I can guarantee I'd support such an article :)
All cs 1.6 needed is better graphics and more competitive maps. Valve delivered new game, people would never like it as you must switch, not pick it up.
i think that's what the problem with cs:go is in a way. obviously people who wish to remain pros at cs had incentives to play enough to get used to it, but a lot of people (a couple of my friends who hadn't played cs in years before included) probably tried it, didn't like it and stopped playing.
But yeah, you're right. Literally all 1.6 needed was better graphics. The solution really was simple, but valve wanted to give it it's own touch....which failed miserably.
sorry my bad english :)
Post edited 2013-07-23 18:28:34
- Major, international events : 1 or 2 per years, with all the best team in the world, for all the reasons given in this article
- Smaller events/league to provide regular interesting matches/contents between the major events
... want to see big events ... It's fun to watch all this players & commentators! Thanks for the blog !
Btw lurppis, why do you think CS:GO has such a hard time with sponsors and viewers in terms of numbers?
in cs u cant really actively avoid bein "bad" at the beginning and the players see u fail in POV when they`re dead so they will flame you even more.
for a 12 year old the choice is pretty easy, play the game with the funny characters and nice effects instead of the one super serious with flaming moes all over.
+u can level up in dota which is a small feeling of success during the match even if u suck
+dota is free+influence of "lol"
if organizations work correctly as businesses, the only way for cs:go to get major events is for valve to back them up. they could monetize it in multiple ways, including making the game free-to-play.
(not arguing, just would like to know)
lol/sc2/dota2 are free 2 play games AND RPG!!!!
CS bring the most viewers like FPS game and most players per day on steam stats.
and why a FPS game becme f2p?
it was for 2-3 days and million cheaters everywhere
BTW not good idea for a FPS (counter strike) f2p
I want to dumb myself down to become able to accept them, but I just can't become an idiot and unsee everything what's wrong with this game.
Post edited 2013-07-23 18:41:31
still ur right, but compare it to music: its depressing to see so many shitty musicians getting the money in the biz right now just cus they are sellouts. i bet the more skilled musicians (like piano players) dont get that much money, still they keep on going and they have listeners, very dedicated ones aswell.
u get my point?
with the streams links whenever an exciting match is on? maybe some idiots dont know how cool cs can be cus they never watched it :D
I wish we had a decent CS game to spectate but we got GO.
Why should the do it now? Unfinished game, low numbers.
Dota2 is a different story. The potential it had from start was just waaaaaaaaaay bigger.
Now there are easier games, more modern-looking games, easier to get into for a total noob, and on top of that many FREE clones, and CS doesn't have that going for it anymore as it had in comparison to Quake and Unreal Tournament that where all "unrealistic" and hard to learn.
Post edited 2013-07-24 03:13:26
VALVE needs TO DO SOMETHING NOW!!!!
the dota 2 community added a MILLION DOLLARS in prize money to their major tournament.... a MILLION... thats a 1 with SIX zeros after it.
that's huge support and financial investment FROM THE COMMUNITY ITSELF.
all sponsors care about is ROI.. return on investment.. if CS fans don't contribute... if they think just playing a game most of us bought for $15 or less.. if they think watching twitch with ad block on or if they think complaining on forums about how sponsors should devote more money to us is going to solve anything, then its obvious why all the sponsors have gone on to other games.
when i look at twitch streams i see donations in LOL or DOTA channels in the THOUSANDS... I see subscriber icons EVERYWHERE... i see DLC/addons etc being purchased left and right.
Then I look at CS:GO and valves experiment with operation payback and the most common reaction is "roflcopter noob why you gonna pay valve money"
operation pay back was even on sale for as low as $0.99... a DOLLAR... and how many people here bitching for more sponsor backing actually purchased it?
this is BUSINESS guys... you are only as good as how much money the BUSINESS can make off of you.
There is absolutely nothing (again, NOTHING) which LoL has added to eSports other than to make it a money-making operation. This is comparable to the rise of the NFL for example, changing a once competitive backyard sport into an easily marketable experience with not much passion behind it imo (why I prefer watching hockey more).
Let's look at what competitive games like Quake, CS 1.6, the fighting games community (bad semantics I know), and others gave us.
-skillful dynamics and play
-legends and marketing of the good kind, wherein players and teams gain prominence for their awesome level of play and legendary status
Let's take a look at what LoL has given eSports:
-cosmetic, rip-off DLCs
-the lowest skill curve in any competitive title ever
-a diminution of strategy and focus on grinding
-and WORST OF ALL, the complete and capitalistic takeover of eSports, proving that money can make viewers and culture and interest arise out of thin air
LoL is the pop music of video games/eSports.
It isn't there yet and needs more and more major updates.
Actually, we gave Valve 4 million dollars, but since only 1/4 of the $10 goes to the prize money only 1 million was added.
operation pay back was even on sale for as low as $0.99... a DOLLAR... and how many people here bitching for more sponsor backing actually purchased it?
Who in pro gaming community even remotely interested in playing casual mode in matchmaking...?
the compendium thing or whatever it was that created all that money for the dota tournament, only 25% went directly back to the community, exactly my point... 100% of the operation payback money went directly back into the community and received almost no support from the competitive community
its not about buying it because i want to play the maps which are a free download anyway, its about buying it to "give back" something that seems to be a foreign concept in the cs community
I doubt that, Valve has to take a share in that, especially because they are the ones hosting the servers.
Your missing the point as well, a lot of people bought the compendium because it was a good deal, you receive 12 different things that are worth the money and some of which were International related. While operation payback is pretty much aimed to pubmasters, which is probably a small amount of the CS:GO playerbase. Most people just play the competitive maps and are not interested in hostage maps.
my point is that everyone on this site wants valve to contribute hundreds of thousands of dollars in prize money to "grow" the community... in other words we want valve to take a risk with their money to hopefully invest in the long term...
yet we cant even contribute a DOLLAR ourselves because we dont receive a direct and instant gratification for it...
i tip the guy who cuts my hair 3-4 dollars once a month but i cant tip people involved in my favorite hobby that i spend hours and hours a day being a fan of for the last 14 years?
Tho tbh you are right that in comparison with the DOTA 2 events or sc2 or even LoL theres a lot of work to be done in order to reach these major events.
Post edited 2013-07-23 18:58:12
lol this was copypaste from the article, he (@sL4Mtv) just wrote that lurppis needs to add SLTV in list too.
Post edited 2013-07-23 19:01:12
I find there is a lot of potential but the problem is that the professional organizers and the people that know how events are planned/works aren't looking to help the new investors by guiding them on how to setup and organize events.
We haven't seen a single major event in CS:GO so far!
The CPH Games and the Dreamhack events were already in 1.6 no major events, ESEA Finals are also no major-event, the Starseries Finals are no major-event, on ESWC CS:GO is just a side-event (final wasn't even on the main-stage), EMS Finals are nothing compared to the awesome IEM Finals (and even the several IEM Challenges were much bigger than anything we have seen in CS:GO so far),...
Like Trace said in the interview: It's a joke. In CS 1.6 mTw always got a least 10k even when ending on 3rd place, but in CS:GO 10k is what the winner gets.
I would definitely welcome a big major tournament sponsored by Valve, but to blame Valve that we don't have major tournaments is wrong because CS 1.6 also had major tournaments without Valve even slightly supporting the game. Well you could say that times changed and all the other esport titles get support from their developers in form of events, but I see one problem: If the developers suddenly decide to stop their support and not organize future events, the whole "thing" will immediately die. The reason why CS 1.6 (respectively 1.0-1.6) survived 12 years in the esport-world was because all the organisations grow "naturally". When the CPL died new events raised. Simply because the whole "1.6 thing" was still big and healthy. The reason why CS:GO has no major event is simple: Because it's damn small. Few players, few viewers, few organisations,... Creating a unnatural bubble by getting someone who creates one big event (or event-series) can be very dangerous and you saw that very clearly in CSS with the CGS.
Before Valve creates a big tournament they first have to make sure CS:GO gets a big player-base. And no, it's not the events that make the player-base grow. Casual players who are supposed to pick up CS:GO don't care if there are big tournaments, they want to play a great game in the first place. Valve needs to improve the game first and most of all: Start a real marketing campaign. Seriously, most gamers haven't even heard of CS:GO. You can't buy it in stores, there is no advertisement,...
Back to topic:
It's not just that the are no major events, there aren't enough events in general.
The people coming from Source may disagree because they were used to have only 2 international events in one year, but damn: Even in 2011 CS 1.6 had twice as much events than CS:GO has now. I want at least 1-2 international events every month. Otherwise I start losing interest very fast..
Speaking about "World-Championships"...something like that doesn't even exists in CS:GO. It's just Europe, with one or two events a year where 2 NA teams attend. That's it. We haven't see a tournament with Asian teams so far and only the ESWC had a South-American team. Like Fallen said: They can't see why they should keep supporting and practicing a game which has no international tournaments for them (especially if the majority of their players prefers playing an other version of CS).
Back in Summer 2012 people said we should switch to CS:GO to make CS more global. Remember: CS 1.6 had Asian teams, South-American teams, North-American teams and European teams (especially a very strong East-European scene with a lot of players and viewers). The only country that got "lost" in the last year of CS 1.6 was South-Korea. Still Carmac said the IEM had to drop CS 1.6 because "it isn't global enough anymore". CS:GO didn't solve this problem at all. It made it 10 times worse.
And here comes Valve: They don't give a fuck about the customers outside of Europe and North-America. There aren't enough server in South-America and Asian, and in Asia they even support the release of a different CS version (CS:O2). How will this help to create true and great worldwide community?
Post edited 2013-07-23 19:17:32
Also you need to understand Valve's logic. They are no welfare-organisation. There's simply no way a CS:GO event with like 100-200k prize money will pay off for them. The impact on the sale-number won't be big enough.
Also: They don't even spend money to promote CS:GO "on a normal way". So why should they promote it with expensive tournaments.
In their eyes CS:GO is just a low-budget project...
Post edited 2013-07-23 19:24:20
Regular fans were having community driven tournaments inside the byoc while the actual QUAKE tournaments were going on... a movement that FORCED the CPL to take notice as demand grew and grew. This community grew and took over the Quake tournament and that's where the MAJOR CS tournaments were born.
We have to stop comparing 1.6 and GO... THEY ARE NOT THE SAME GAME. 1.6 had 0 competition
lets look at the state of the cs professional scene and how unprofessional it is...
how often are there constant forfeits and reschedules in the online games?
how often do top teams decline lan events because "its not profitable"?
where is the passion? where is the dedication?
this is no different than any other business... think about when someone creates their own business. they often take a loss sometimes for YEARS before they turn profit.
we expect everything to carry over from 1.6 but 1.6 did not have any competition... Counter-Strike was the master and now the pupils have taken over... as a community we need to stop being the spoiled children of 1.6 expecting to inherit our parents money and not have to work
Yes, it's true, that's how it all started. It all grew naturally.
I was even a part of it. Here in Germany it were mostly Quake and Unreal-Tournament events that started to also hold CS tournaments. Simply because so many people started playing CS and the number of people asking for CS tournaments became huge. Something like that never happened with CS:GO. The community is now even smaller than in the last years of 1.6, almost no new players joined the scene and we never saw something like a "CS:GO hype". Back then almost every boy in my school-class played CS (we were only 13 yo), but if you would visit a school-class today the kids haven't even heard of CS (and most of them don't even own a PC anymore - just a macbook and a damn PS3 to play COD; the reason why MOBA games dominate on the PC is simple: FPS are now mostly played on consoles while you simply can't play MOBA games on console; but then again TF2 got pretty decent player numbers of the last years, so there is still a chance...).
"1.6 had 0 competition"
How do you mean that? No other games to compete against?
That's actually false. Back then we had a lot of FPS that were popular. Besides Quake3 Germany had a big Unreal-Tournament community. But most of all: There were many games similar to CS (e.g Rainbow-Six): In its first years CS had to compete against "Tactical OPS", what was basically a "copy" of CS made on the Unreal engine. At least here in Germany it was a head-on-head race with CS obviously ending up as the winner. CS:GO hasn't much competitors in its own genre. Or can you name a competitive FPS on the PC, that is very popular right now? Something like that doesn't exist anymore.
But of course CS:GO has a lot of competitor in the general esport market. The fact that it's the only FPS and still has no chance actually shows how hard the FPS genre struggles on the PC...
"we expect everything to carry over from 1.6 but 1.6 did not have any competition"
Sorry, but again: That's wrong. In the 12 years of CS it had a lot of competitors (btw LoL came out in 2009) and although it became VERY VERY outdated over the years (remember that Crysis already came out in 2007) it still did pretty good.
Post edited 2013-07-23 20:26:59
and im not talking about competition between cs and lol... cs and starcraft have been able to live side by side since the beginning
the most played fps on steam is tf2... but if you were to combine cs, css, and go together then CS is larger
look at how much support tf2 gets from valve. all i hear my tf2 friends talk about is people putting REAL money into the game... yet in CS the community just expects giant prize purses to be thrown at us simply because of past success
But its true - "money rule the world " and organizations dont wanna puts money in projects like CSGO , which is real dont giving them profits (except NIP).But what is that just one team in a whole world having a profit !
its real could be kill discipline CSGO like a Quake3 at one time .
if Valve not invest money into the game asap ,prob we will see soon more disban teams , which is give to CS community no reason to follow this game . And this point -- no viewers ->no sponsors -> no money -> no point to invest money in this game = RIP
But ofc ppl always been playing this game(who is real love this game ) but we all forever forgetting "like Lurppis said " what is IEM WCG CPL DH, whatever, cuz its obv : events not including CSGO as discipline .
Post edited 2013-07-23 19:15:46
Imo Valve does not give a fuck about CS:GO... Honestly I am loosing all hopes for this game
How about hltv.org hosting a tournament where the prizepool is donated by the community.
I hope someone at VALVe is going to print a copy of this article and read it out loud during a meeting.. Moba and RTS games in E-sports have huge titles are the competition is rough, FPS games have very little in comparison, should be an easy choice to invest into it..
every major eSport title has the developer host a huge event, even 360 black ops has a 1mio dollar event
it's just like they don't care anymore and just leave their child alone to die
Post edited 2013-07-23 20:12:09
It's Valve's job to make CS:GO suitable for competitive play, after that there's no reason why it can't reach the same level as 1.6 did without them having to chuck their money at tournaments. They still have a long way to go before that's the case and the community should definitely be putting pressure on them to do that before anything else.
I'm not a huge fan of developers pouring money into the esports scene anyway because it's not sustainable. As soon as they realise that it's no longer giving them a healthy return that support will drop, and without the game having grown naturally it will collapse.
Post edited 2013-07-23 19:28:57
It's about sustainable growth. CS:GO has been out for a year now and has been steadily growing in numbers playing and numbers watching. This has led to an increase in the number of events with most providing fairly good prize pots.
In time, should it continue to grow, all of those numbers will rise to the level that 1.6 enthusiasts are used to. In order for that to happen though people need a solid game that's interesting, and at the moment CS:GO still has a long way to go.
People seem to forget how young the game and the competitive scene is. Without the money from developers it'd be ridiculous to expect major tournaments to throw their cash at it at this stage.
Post edited 2013-07-23 19:39:52
cs:go can't compete with dota2/lol/sc2 in roi, so the only way for it to make a huge leap is for valve to pump in some money and monetize it in some way.
back then we were all like "ooo a mouse pad wtf is this cool d00d"
sponsors didnt really have a choice if they wanted to advertise... if CPL played pong they still would have had big prize purses because that was the only advertising stream for sponsors
As I said. It needs to be sustainable.
however - guess who COULD sustain a potential $100k hit? Valve.
It's a different time in eSports now. Valve started the trend with the first International, soon enough Riot followed and then Blizzard had to intensify its support as well, or it would follow behind.
Right now the gaming market is full of "eSports" titles, so publishers and developers have to develop ways to get our attention and keep us interested. I have friends that never played anything else aside from fifa and football manager and now everyday they play LoL. But I agree, a game needs to be suitable for competitive play if it wants to be big, or else we'll have another Shootmania, Quake Live, Brink etc
im only 15 years old and every guy on our school who is playing shooters only knows COD TrICksHOttTZz or bf3 beCause GrapHicSz so GOuUUWd
1.6 was thrown to the community. The community made it big and famous. Since 1.6 became famous tournaments picked the game.It's simple as this.
2: "It's Valve's job to make CS:GO suitable for competitive play(...)"
Remember that Valve made this game for casual/semi-competitive.
In other words, what are you expecting about the future of CS:GO if they (Valve) don't upgrade it to be a more suitable game for competitive scene ?
3: "(...)there's no reason why it can't reach the same level as 1.6 did without them having to chuck their money at tournaments."
I've been thinking lately about one thing: Valve didn't waste much money to upgrade CS since 1.0 to 1.6 and with this the game became big (but the reason was the community, and they might think that it was them who made them big). Is it possible that they might think the same but for CS:GO? If it happens then the game is dead :/
4: "(...)the community should definitely be putting pressure on them to do that before anything else."
Sorry to say but they aren't listening to the community about what it rly needs to be upgraded.
Well this leads to (2) of my post
5: "support will drop, and without the game having grown naturally it will collapse."
Well, every game will fall someday... Even CS:GO wouldn't show up, it would happen the same to 1.6 :/
And to come up with quite a statement here, attacking every single "onepixelsixer" there may be on this site, I'm up for a war, because the responsibility is on you, and it is, sadly enough, mainly your fault.
So many babies crying out loud on forums day in, and day out. Never ever have you been positive about this new title - but why would you EVER think you'd be able to impress a firm with a stone-age game - hence its skill and popularity - it will die anyway, and why not let CS: GO be "the next in line". I could've been a Call of Duty-game taking over Counter-Strike's glory; and to be fair, I'd rather have Promod doing that(... and I DON'T like it!). But for whatever reason there may be, I'll, forever and always, will be supportive towards the brand we've been having so much fun around since the Millenium - Counter-Strike, whether it be 1.5, 1.6, Condition Zero, Source or Global Offensive - support it for fuck sake!
I hate trashtalking others, and I usually respect others' opinion, but when they trashtalk the Only Hope of Counter-Strike's future, they're up for a fight.
You retards are complaining all the time, and all the hatred between 1.6 and Source is nonsense, but to be fair towards the Source-community(and the coming and running CoD's)it's mainly the hypocrites from the HLTV-based-community who's ruining the chances of having a Major once again.
I'm sad to tell you guys the truth, whether it be Lurppiss or cArn, you don't help more than you think you do. Yes, Tomi writes incredible articles although he's having an awful angle into his writing - and pretty much the same goes for Patrik. All you want to do, is to save your own ass, get yourself the best image imaginable, and for whose of you not seeing through his armor of hate towards this new game(he looks like the good guy from fnatic, but really..? Look deep into his statements, whether it be when it comes to a substitution or on the [POD]Cast, it's awful to hear.)
To round this up, why do you think [POD]Cast ONLY features 1.6'ers? ; - )
Post edited 2013-07-23 19:43:32
we've tried to ask rattlesnk but not sure if we've been ignored or declined.
without attacking you, i believe your rational is poor.
we know nothing about him. we have no idea what teams he played for. hell, we didn't even know he was one of the best in source.
what do we ask him for an hour?
It just seems like an excuse for not having the contrast between 1.6 and Source to give it two angles into the show - it'd make it a hell of a show; not necessarily with FeTiSh or RattlesnK. But doing the research into the Source scene it wouldn't be much of a deal. And when you're friends with VeryGames on Steam, or at least have contact to them, ask them?
Without being a jerk, I'll happily help you and the rest of the crew:
And to help you even furtherly with the research of top players in Source, I might as well add these names:
/// They're not as bad as you make them. Everyone has imperfections.
and I could seriously continue..
aaaaaaaand... what's actually wrong asking active players in the likes of, yeah... when fnatic had a cs team, why not having them on the show regularly? that'll make sense to me if they were. or maybe even have a League of Legends player in over the show - like xPeke og Cyanide - and they can give you/us their view on the likes of Counter-Strike and the Esports functioning within the FPS-titles - they are after all in the biggest organization in the world of Esports, give them some time to work(not too much ofc., they've got the LCS, but just a lil') and they could easily participate in one of your shows - maybe not for the entire hour, but at least some of it.
To follow this subject that's written above, I really don't understand why you haven't asked people like hudzG, wilzOO, Fifflaren, Friberg(like ESPlanet did) or in the likes of the legends of Source form the Danish/French scene.
I, personally, don't get it. You guys are great journalists, but researching into Source is too damn exhausting, I know.
*This is not an attack, I might as well just be a bit pissed over the "excuse".
i've actually planned to try to get nbk to hop on, and we have even mentioned we'll bring in dazed at some point, but getting the schedules to work with americans is VERY hard.
it doesn't help to know who is good out of the former cs:s players because we still don't know anything about them, so how can we make the show interesting? we can't, all we can do is try to get lucky and hope the person can make it interesting themselves.
i really don't understand why we would bring players from any other game to our counter-strike podcast, so i'm just going to ignore that.
i know nothing about hudzg (just like other cs:s players) and wilzoo is an old cheater, whom i didn't hear of since 2004ish. i've been told nip players aren't interested in doing anything with me since my remarks on fifflaren (hence no winner interview at dreamhack summer) so we have to rule them out as well. finally, valve just got back to us today and declined to come on the show because they're too busy.
tl;dr: we only want guests who we think are interesting and we know enough about to make the show interesting.
Post edited 2013-07-25 11:23:11
I trust you when it comes to planning the show, not only with Americans but with everyone.
Heyo, you mentioned it yourself, it's a Counter-Strike Podcast, but isn't it intended to touch CS: GO and what's moving around us at this moment?
You could, motherfucking easily, search on Google for information, and getting to know the person, and giving it a genuine shot, could, and would, make the show interesting for all parts - you old fashion dudes could probably learn something new, whether you find it oh so interesting or not, that'll be on your cape, I guess.
I'm not asking you to get players from Call of Duty, but Counter-Strike for Christ's sake. You COULD find a Call of Duty-player into the show, to see what their environment was like back in their glory days and what not.
It's all not that complicated, but you tend to buckle the legs of the show at some extend.
Now I have to ask you a question: What makes RattlesnK a worthy person to be invited into your show compared to guys like FeTiSh.
That's it. FeTiSh have won 10 times more than RattlesnK ever have, and probably will, within the Counter-Strike franchise. RattlesnK's most notable performances was the CGS and Copenhagen Games - so the start and the beginning of Source.
Now visit this link and see the accomplishments: http://g33kz.dk/
I know it's hard to find the right persons, and you have to have somewhat of a synergy with them to make the show interesting. Besides everyone pretty much "hates" Sam for his persona within the scene, and that's the only reason I see him "worthy" of joining your trio in the Podcast-serie. I simply don't get it. Hope you can clear it more up for me, as I am totally on the field of no-sense of you guys' logic.
*I'm not a fan of Henrik, or anyone really, but I just want to make a point, and he's a great example.
Post edited 2013-07-25 12:07:15
i think we can make some fairly interesting shows without hours (that none of us have) of research. if we know we can message some people who used to play 1.6 that we know a lot about, why would we go through hours of research on a cs:s player who may or may not turn out to be interesting?
rattlesnk, based on my observations, is a much more interesting figure, i know much more about him than i do about fetish (same goes for carn + thorin) and it's safe to assume he'd give us some interesting answers.
i think sometimes people forget that we're doing this show for fun to please the community and the irregularity of the show should somewhat explain how hard it is for us to even find two free hours to do the show - much less spend hours researching. we're all busy people with busy lives.
Post edited 2013-07-24 18:10:21
Yes, my temper is definitely my biggest hurdle in terms of making the cut of what you'll call it, but I have to work on that. But it's hard to say who's doing what in certain situations.
Don't tell me that none of "the Legends" was just the slightest rager.
i'm sure there's been plenty of ragers before and there will be plenty of ragers after, but i've personally never seen anyone like rattlesnk.
My thought is that to bring back "majors" as you mention, there are not 50 ways. You either have the model of Riot (injecting money into the game : typically the LCS) or having a big community - supported/followed by orgs afterwards.
CS:GO doesn't gather enough players and people (viewers/fans) right now, even though it might be one of the most competitive game atm (in term of ratio the casual pop is probably very poor). I'm not an expert in the domain but I believe the lack of sponsors and entertainment is obviously the reason why the "majors" aren't as big as in the past and why the cash is not as important as in many 1.6 events - The question is how to get the money into CS:GO ?.
The game itself isn't as enjoyable as the previous cs versions (even source). A game which doesn't entertain a gamer can't succeed to developp or to grow well despite being well made for competition.
On the other hand moba are extremely enjoyable to play and SC2 is very nice to watch even if you don't play the game. This is a success that naturally occurs, this isn't the case with CS:GO and it will never be unfortunately.
Dota 2 is very competitive and great to play/watch and that's why it met such a success, about LoL whoever says it's not competitive is and idiot, the game is very easy itself but at some point being able to master it and play it at the greatest level is hard.
The reason why some are succesfull and others are not is all about format and pleasure, CS:GO isn't very easy to watch and doesn't bring as much pleasure as the previous games mentionned.
(I'm firstly a fps player but right now, I prefer play LoL)
Right now, it's maybe actually better to have many middle range tournaments instead of one big, this makes the game live and entertain continualy the viewers/fans. Plus we have a pool of 5-10 teams able to go/fight (I would love to see more) at all those tournaments which is a good thing for the competitive scene. Having a big one will make those team preparing more and being more involved but I doubt about the final output. Months of preparation for only one tournament with nothing aside isn't something viable for me.
Post edited 2013-07-23 19:34:35
This doesnt exactly allow the "general public" easy access
just take a look at all these movement value posts demanding valve to make a change to the game... we dont even use these values in leagues and yet we demand valve to change the whole game?
lets take a look at mirage... the competitive community used it so much that valve ACTUALLY made their own "user friendly" version of it for the general public.
valve is not stupid, they arent deaf dumb or blind... they are obviously paying attention to us and i guarantee they havnt forgotten how essential counter-strike was to their growth as a company
GO is missing the huge general public that the original versions of cs had and as much as many of you are going to hate me for saying it, GO needs to be more NOOB friendly.
does that mean that the competitive community has to follow suit? no it doesnt... once somebody loves the game and they learn about the competitive scene, they become willing to go out of their way to join the competitive community... how many of us download anti-cheats or special versions of the maps to play?
we need to stop trying to force the competitive scene down the throats of the "pub nubs" and allow them to grow on their own and join us when they are ready
Why does everything has to be free to watch in cs:go while in many other games/industries you would have to pay.
We could start of with a donation to maybe esl, dreamhack or whatever(someone who knows how to run a good event already). Just making the pricepool that much bigger and therefore making it more fun for viewers and players!
(Maybe hltv.org could make somekind of prizemoney-donation icon and get the money. Then they could distribute the money to whatever they could arrange.)
valve gave us a chance to support ourselves and instead of pulling out our wallets we complained on forums
you state all the time that valve ignores the competitive pros... of course they do, our ideas do not align with the general publics ideas.... a great cs:go stream will get 40,000 viewers whereas valve always brings up the fact that there are over 1 million monthly cs:go players so 40,000 people is nothing to valve, they would be idiots to only listen to the 40,000
whats the first thing a pro does to a game? put everything to low settings for max fps... the exact opposite of what the general public wants
we want valve to change the movement values in their game but we dont even use the values in our own leagues?
you want valve to listen to you... bring something to the table for them... make a post asking for people on hltv to buy the operation pay back.... then go to valve and say "hey look, on this day i made this post and within 24 hours i got 10,000 people to buy your product" THAT is what sponsors and the people with money want to see... not forum with 1,000 replies of people arguing
if cs:go doesn't become a success competitively it will die in a few years when newer games with better graphics come out. if it's a competitive success like 1.6 it can live for a decade. your move, valve.
(p.s. in case you failed math, extra purchases of the game for 6-8 years after its normal life span > the few people who wouldn't like the changes)
you think that the competitive community is all that's needed for a game to thrive... lets look at the examples we've seen in history of games with big money tournaments that didnt go anywhere:
all short lived games with big prize money that went no where
a competitive community thrives when there is a large non-competitive community that can feed new fans/players into it
tl;dr: your examples backfired
Post edited 2013-07-25 14:24:33
painkiller had exactly what you are asking valve to do for cs, but valve is instead focusing on building the general public and the non-competitive scene.. while also providing a great way for people to learn about competitive 5v5 with their matchmaking.
but instead of supporting and helping the scene grow... you just want things done your way. i'm sure you probably have the same "tl:dr" attitude with valve
quake4 and painkiller had what, one event series each (wsvg, cpl wt)? and doom was played at... quakecon? those aren't comparable to how much better cs:go is currently doing.
i want valve to do what they should do for the competitive community, because if it dies, there will be nothing left to grow. i don't have much of an attitude at all since they don't listen to anything i say ^^
never before has any version of cs seen this kind of attention and focus towards the competitive scene
i dont understand how people think valve isnt listening to us
valve need to make 3-4 100 000 k tournaments
and it will be like IEM/WCG/ESWC in 1-6
For me the main problem in cs:go is the game being played once in a while...FIFA,COD, are games that if we play every day we get tired of them and cs:go is one of them, and i say this because, despite being my personal opinion i also hear very often friends and other guys complaining the same..
Cs 1.6 or source had another magic in my point of view.
seems weird reading carn has only won 2 majors, but if you think about it it can't be argued :O
Post edited 2013-07-23 21:12:36
Post edited 2013-07-23 22:43:02
Did they create CSGO to renew the serie (then keeping some players and bringing new ones) ?
Are they making minimalist updates to make us believe they still care about CS ?
I just don't understand why any organization would even dare to pour cash on a dead game.
Only a small amount of ex-1.6 and source player want hard game because they're used to it. New users prefer playing BF/COD in fps genre or Dota2/LoL because they're easy to learn and fun to play.
Majority of that 270k probably doesn't even care about competitive. They just play 32p pubs, deathmatches or zombie mods. And 270k is honestly not much considering how that number is split into THREE static communities.
If a user cannot afford a $5 game and still plays on non-steam in this year then i'm 100% sure his PC cannot handle CS:GO even on lowest settings so that's irrelevant.
Post edited 2013-07-24 03:29:38
Its so fucking sad that to younger generations of gamers, cod is considered a serious fps title LOL.
lurppis that's hell of great article.
100% agree with your call for action. Valve needs to step up!
Gj on the article.
The marketing crew has to consider that Earth`s population still can not meet all basic requirements to play this game on a basic, competitive, ENJOYABLE, level.
Remember: most Asians posses a P4 processor......
> wow is living from 8 polygones or something so accessable on low rigs.
> LoL has a grinding system that is needed to play a great role of psychological developement of individuals (proven by scholar research, google it) into LoL`s sucess...
It binds its player because a lot of time is being invested to even start playing decent and having champs and play with good people in upper divisions
> Why streams stagnate: it is kind of hard to watch a stream with 3500 kbs while the majority`s internet is slower, the quality drops automatically when limits set a physical barrier. Complicated textures of walls and players blurr out into a colour bomb and when it gets quite difficult to follow the action thanks to all of those facts. I find GO is a great game, a game I can not play thanks to my kenston quad 4 times 2.4ghz
Post edited 2013-07-23 20:38:15
CS1.6 > CSGO in tournaments, community, support, game...
But i have a feeling that valve are scared of making huge changes mostly becouse they don't know how to do it (see movement story) or maybe becouse are scared of comunity reaction towards them.
In other games like LoL for example, when Riot nerfs some champion no1 complains about anything becouse they know the game will open new ways of playing the game.
i really enjoy your passion and dedication to the game, but here's a thought:
it's all about making money, not giving money away - corporation-wise, that is.
as much as i agree with you and would love to see Valve or anyone else backing up a major tournament, the fact remains that no organization will ever throw a tournament if it doesn't generate revenue. It can be from registration fees, advertisements, long term hardware/software sales, or any other form, but it still has to make money. Maybe a "patron" like Arbalet will throw a tournament here and there, but you can't rely on a rich man's generosity to keep a community alive.
In my opinion, that's the kind of logic that generates "mid-sized" events like DreamHack, ESEA and the like, but you will hardly ever see that creating a major tournament - and btw, I bet ESEA premium passes generate even more money than bitcoins :)
For "major" tournaments, you need "major" revenues.
Counter-Strike does not provide that.
LoL, DotA, and probably most other MMO games (WoW, anyone?) are games that generate huge revenue streams. And by huge I mean millions of dollars per month. Not from selling game copies, obviously, but from selling items such as skins, champions and whatnot. I mean, I bet even Travian generates more money than Counter-Strike! Why do you think there's even CS-Online? You can buy more and more stuff as you play the game, but you can't do that with "normal" counter-strike.
Just so you get an idea, the International tournament you mention has a pass that you can buy for 8 USD and by doing that you add 2.5 USD to the prize pool, which is now over 2.5M USD. This means they made at least 3M USD just from selling those one-event passes (i think the starting pool was 1.6M). As you can imagine, this is just the tip of the iceberg (think all other item sales) and unfortunately CS is a game that you buy once and use forever free of charge.
Back in the day you needed CS to get the steam platform up and running and selling games by the second, but now that steam is in full throttle I don't see why Valve would want to worry about the game except for sentimental reasons - and bless them for that.
I think that if we are ever to see the type of tournament you mention the best option is probably to crowd-fund it. Have the people at Dreamhack (or someone else who has the know-how) kickstart a CS:GO prize pool (kickstarter.com), and see how much that creates.
A friend of mine makes computer games and his company got crowd funded for 3.3M USD to make a 2D adventure game and now they just got another 1.2M USD to make a strategy game.
If we pay for tournaments, I can see them happening. If we are to wait for Valve or some other org to do it out of generosity, I think it's going to be a very very long wait.
CS:GO doesn't generate enough money compared to other games to justify major tournaments. LoL/Dota have much higher return on investment.
...especially if they were to make the game free-to-play with purchasable items ;]
What do you think of a major performance update ??
performance as in? i bet just making better (read: cleaner textures, less stupid 1 pixel cracks everywhere, simplified etc.) maps would give people a much higher fps.
Then we need to stick our heads together and draw up a business plan for Valve to show how they could succeed.
Since planning a big international will create content, but it is not going to increase Steam's CCU and therefor not a long-term solution....
Its not easy selling items in CS:GO because like you said buying gear might make the game unbalanced and would probably mean a huge change to the game, but if people are willing to pay to ESEA for premium accounts, why not simply pay a similar amount to Valve, play in decent servers, make good use of overwatch, and get rid of the middle man? Valve could even throw in some sort of update to the user profile with more detailed stats, ladders, ranks, whatnot...
Selling gun skins / spray decals / other random stuff that doesn't change game mechanics would also be an option, I guess.
And you could still keep the "less-than-optimal" 64 tic servers to a lower number for casual MM + community servers and then have 128 tic servers for subscribers.
Other than that the only stream revenue I see Valve getting from CS is licensing, which as far as I know is limited to some SS products and maybe some others I've never heard of, but will never generate enough money to get Valve's attention.
Seriously, that would kill the game. Here's what happens in an e-sport enviroment: the competitive scene is supported by the casual scene. The casuals like what the pros do, and they would love to be in their places, doing the same things, they actually pretend that they're doing the same thing playing mixes, PUGs, home leagues, and even on 4fun servers. By casuals, I mean people that aren't playing for serious, like you and me.
If you introduce a game mode, or even features, that have nothing to do with what the pros do, it won't help the competitive scene in any way, it'll just boost the casual side of the game. Look at the TF2 competitive scene, its a joke, even though they have the people, the money, and a pretty good game (that works very well if you play 9x9, highlander mode). TF2 doesn't makes it because of lack of interest from the casual players on the competitive side of the game, because they're miles apart.
Cosmetic stuff in general won't work because the average CS player doesn't care about these things, and it has a serious risk of ruining the game. What I think would work though is a revamp of MM, so it becomes more relevant. It has to meet the community standards, which are too high to be implemented on a worldwide scale without backup money. The game must also enforce the competitive enviroment, maybe reward people that go through it in some way, so playing competitively becomes the standard (but how do you stop people from playing on 10vs10 servers without turning them away from the game?). Thats what Dota does. Then, as interest in the competitive scene rises, they'll have to introduce a better coverage of events and a better GOTV, something that works more like Dota 2, spectating and casting from within the client, with real time statistics and cool stuff like that, but guess what, this is expensive.
There is also this whole issue of gameplay mechanics that a lot of people are unhappy with, but the truth is CSGO is already a pretty solid game, despite whatever flaws anyone may think it has, it has appeal. It is a competitive game, probably the most competitive FPS on the market, and it is fun (I'm sure a lot of people will beg to differ, but even without them it still has a big public, nonetheless). Hosting big events is great, but there are more important things to focus now, and they seem to think so. Overwatch is part of an attempt to turn the game into F2P (which would be great). The missing piece is finding something that people who play CSGO are interested in, and sell it to them.
"pixel cracks everywhere" that's so irrelevant to optimization. All the pixel peeks I've seen in csgo are in a single part of the map (ex car box in b on d2, between the boxes d2 mid by b doors) even if valve did fix them it would MAYBE give you 1 fps extra. And only in certain positions. "I'll play car guys its the only place in the whole map I have playable fps at."
tl;Dr "pixel cracks" are also pretty irrelevant
Simplified, yes this could impact fps. Would it be the drastic change everyone thinks it would be? Not really no. But an extra 10/20 fps goes a long way when your PC is shit.
Source's optimization is different than goldsrc. Sources mainly works by cutting the map up into different sections. (ex ct spawn, mid, b, a, tuns, long double doors Etc for d2 again) What's rendered is based of what you can see. So if I'm in long double doors I can see to blue container. therefore from my current visleaf I'm able too see 2 more. t spawn and blue container. So that's what's drawn. Valve is already so good at optimizing that they've cut these visleafs even smaller so when you're running up to blue container things on long start getting drawn. Stand by the concrete blocks by blue container with mat_wireframe 3 on. Car shouldn't be visible but once you start running up it will be drawn. This is a pretty ghetto explanation but I doubt you'll go look up source optimization videos to fully understand.
more so though imo the way the textures look and the one pixel cracks etc just make the game worse to play.
I think this whole thing needs to be reworked, also new maps have to be introduced, just like cache, which have nothing to do with the old stuff.
The community feels something is moving with GO, which is perfect, but nontheless a big part is left behind that does not have the right computers to play..
Computer industry stopped creating photorealistic textures and exhausting engines long ago. Most successfull games on the internet, especially on the competitive part of it, do not live from extraordinary graphics. I am not quite sure why this step has been done, but the Source Engine and not this Source Two engine that has been employed with CS:GO, is more than enough, even to compute pretty wall textures..
I really see the biggest problem of spec counts in the problem that it is really not easy to see whats up in the game especially when the bitrates drop...
And lastly also because not too many people are playing the game. First a critical mass has to be created and that can only happen if more players contribute to the CCU of Steam.
I think the best honest move Valve could do in this event would be just re-working the engine and simplifying the most textures, remove the animations or at least give an option to switch the most animations off the game if one doesn't like seeing them. We, as the community, should create competitive playermodels, just like back in 2006 the HLTV models have been introduced.
Because remember: they have been introduced for several reasons: Low bitrates on streams due to low internet standards and lower rendering power, so that blue and red colors could be seen better on streams, same we need to make with GO.
And with that pixel stuff that you are talking about lurppis: I am not quite sure, but I tried switching off the exact rendering with nvidia inspector and it all looked blurry and yet my FPS haven't gone up, not even by 10....
The problem really is the pre-rendering of textures on far distances when entering bigger sky boxes. They need to remove the fancy stuff or at least give an option to switch it all off.. and by this I mean not just the quality of rendering it, I am speaking of giving an option to have a competitive mode with blank walls, no death animations, etc.
Valve is looking into pro players' and organisers' opinions. They have proven so when they have reworked almost everything in terms of in-game physics back in May 2012... (I am playing ever since the closed beta in March 2012). Then some pro's came into play and told to make the game more difficult... A clear reacion of people who know they need a good game and especially a game where they will be the best from the start to resque their own asses of being the top needed by teams... I will even stick my ellbows out and say that comfortably because that is simply the fact.. GO used to be a balanced game in the beginning, turned into something unplayable afterwards...
Post edited 2013-07-24 16:00:38
I fucking lold lurppis... :D
But I surely agree that Volvo has to step it up!
Obviously dota2 has huge viewership whereas CS:GO doesn't have any, but if any major wants to pick up CS:GO yeah sure volvo has to host one first! Should be like 50k as u said and up to 100k-250k
Sure would be fun to see in the future like 2015 that The International hosts both dota2 and CS:GO.
ps. CPL ftw
I can give more chances to CS Promod instead of CS:GO... >.<
Sponsors need incentive.
I'm scared now.
Post edited 2013-07-24 02:17:01
No, but in all seriousness major events only take games that will bring in the most $$$ they don't care whether or not it is casual. For example Black Ops 2 in MLG.
P.S. The only shooters that are more non-casual than CSGO are twitch shooters and possibly 1.6.
Simple: the game is shit. valve has done fuck all to improve it and have not interacted with the community within the past year at all.
IMO it has nothing to do with the game being different from 1.6 (or css for saucers) it's because the game is simply TERRIBLE. Movement is horrible, gun mechanics are horrible, maps are horrible (too narrow). The gameplay in general just feels terrible, there's no feel to shooting a gun or killing a person like there is in every other FPS game.
CoD receives a ton of hate but god damn it if it isn't entertaining to play. If activision showed proper support for PC to give a chance for the community to create a promod again it could even be a competitive game.
CS 1.6 was FUN to play. It was addicting, it felt good and it was enjoyable. Even when i started it and i couldn't do decent let alone kill a person. DMing was fun, the gameplay felt great (feedback from shooting guns) and when you killed someone it was great because of the death animations etc. The road to becoming good at the game was enjoyable, it was always fun to play even when i had a bad game or did shitty otherwise. In GO it's only a matter of a game or two when it already feels boring as hell to play due to the randomness, cheap deaths from bad mechanics that enable bad players to kill you without any skill being involved, kills being stolen due to horrible gun mechanics (stand still, tap at a guy standing still with the AK and it takes 3-4 bullets to land the headshot?, WTF). It just isn't fun to play, even if you are doing well. Not to mention the process of getting to the point where you can do good.
I had multiple friends buy CSGO from sales, they all dropped it within the first 5-10hours. The reason for all of them to do it? "I can accept the fact that im shit at the game, i have never played FPSes before. What i can't deal with is that it felt boring and dull to try and improve at the game, it wasn't fun at all to even try to improve. In SC2 i had fun even when i was getting my ass kicked by everyone and i was just trying to learn the game, that's why i stuck with it."
biggest crowd ever seen in counter strike history was at ESWC 2007 final for PGS Vs Noa and we will never see a thing like that again :(
Post edited 2013-07-23 22:47:30
Europe has always been the best in CS 1.6 (though from time to time an Asian, South- or North-American team won an event), that has been the case in all of the 12 years and was definitely nothing that came with the last years.
The true reason why it got dropped is: It slowly declined and other esport-titles (like LoL and Dota) became stronger. That's it.
Now cArn and Lurp come with the same stuff and all of a sudden people agree with them.
Hypocracy at its best.
Anyway i agree with everything in the article and i also have to say that valve wont move their finger of making CS:GO a lovable and playable game for the masses like 1.6 was.
CS:GO is valve way of saying we are killing the FPS and we want to stick with mobas aka Dota2.
dota2 brings in huge piles of cash with the store + dota 2 being free brings huge numbers (358,000 and always growing) to steam their main platform. Now compare it to cs go (38,000) max maybe bit more now with the sale still thats no where near the numbers dota 2 and the following dota 2 has, add in the dota 2 store / compendium.
and bam I see no way why valve would ever think about supporting csgo like it does with dota 2 when they will not make money from it. Same goes with lol biggest game in the world FREE makes millions with it's store provides a world wide league /tournament where it gets exposure ad revenue through streams and increase's sales overall for them.
Post edited 2013-07-24 00:12:16
we love counter strike 1.6
we have fun play,
In csgo where you can't really develope in movement nor wallbanging the skill gap is very low. This causes many situations where a bad player with better odds usually wins a better player. The reason is that the good player doesn't have any lifelines (in this case skills that come by the amount of experience) on which he could rely and therefore is a victim of odds. This makes the game so boring and it's the main reason why we don't see that many amazing rounds as in 1.6.
Let's take a rest like markeloff ))summertime )
csgo just doesnt have that hype or popularity.
What we have today, is a game that is broken since the beta version, not as much as CSS, but still a broken game. That is not enough. The brand Counter-Strike is too strong to be represented by such weak game.
Now how to do that with a community full of blockheads that aren't interested in your game?
I'm not asking for a direct port I'm asking for a game that makes sense, Csgo does not make sense it has a great setup from GUI and other features for a competitive game but the gameplay is not competitive it's luck box that's all the game is built on.
Dota and lol have very little luck, if your team is better it will win. If you click a skill it the skill registers there is no luck factor but what separates good players and bad is how you use your skills.
In fps games you have a gun and you aim with it and if you shoot at their head and they don't die and some random turns around adadada spray and kills you randomly is that fun ? It's not your fault that you did not kill him it's the game.
Valve needs to give up on casualness an fps with a low skill ceiling and no good bugs is useless you are watching the pinnacle of the game right now, in 1.6 due to its exploits and good bugs the game kept evolving people were learning things in 1.6 until the very end even 12 years after new tricks were found.
See ice frog is smart he kept good bugs in dota 2 because it creates advantage for better skilled players.
You cannot remove exploits from an fps the game becomes stale and boring quick because everyone is moving like everybody else everyone is shoots randomly like everyone else this is why cod and bf3 release games every year to keep the game "fresh" it's the exact same reason why cod and bf never became as big as 1.6 in esports because the skill is so heavily capped its boring.
I know of 30 or more people who are waiting for go to improve to a competitive level me included until that happens they will not touch it despite already owning the game.
Make the game fun again numbers will rise viewers will raise and so will events.
Post edited 2013-07-24 08:04:03
This is only on Chile :/... 1.6 how i hate you
Post edited 2013-07-24 08:59:37
It already has a bigger daily peak than CS1.6, and its barely 1 year old, while 1.6 is around for more than 10 years.
These games are miles from each other when it comes to success in player numbers. No matter how hard anyone tries to show statistics the facts remain in this article: Too few players, too few viewers and too few big tournaments.
Kid, start thinking. What PC game is 10-12 years old and still popular? Such games are heavily outdated and don't attract new players anymore, especially in a society with a "new is always better" mentality.
Post edited 2013-07-25 14:56:13
Your statement is ridiculous.
most 1.6ers were like 12 year ols who could not afford a computer
only pros were old
BTW: in 2010 january stats from game monitor.
And so what if some of the 1.6ers were 12? Atleast they played the game and got atleast decent at it instead of just being a dickhead on public servers and "trolling" like the css counterparts.
The reason why the PROS were old is cause the game was old=older people had played the game since the day 1.0 came out. So how do you expect some one younger who has played only year or couple to be on the same level as the teams full of guys who have all played 5+ years?
Yeah, the major tournaments would bring more pressure into the players and I believe that even more to the fans that are watching.
change knife model
change gun model
looks like shit
In 1.5 you start by choosing a random public server from a massive server list, oh cool, you made progress and Cpt. Winters from -=DAD'S ARMY=- tells you about competitive gaming and makes you install Ventrilo and mIRC, where you search your games from. 10 years later and the pattern is exactly the same.
I can not believe, that in an industry as big as gaming, nobody and I mean nobody has taken computer FPS-gaming further. I guess we were too used to the norms from an ancient era of gaming that nobody gave flying fuck about actually developing competitive gaming forward. No we are wondering, heads up on our asses, why games which require one single press of a button to find a LEGIT game that calculates your ELO are actually the most popular ones. Meanwhile we copy and paste ip&pw to console, after looking for a game for 18 minutes, just to play some Turkish hackers with 115 ping.
ESEA is great for more skilled players but how does it help the problem which is attracting new players?
There have been some great external solutions for gaming like ESEA and CB (once), but which INTERNAL innovations have you seen during the past 10 years? A modern human requires that everything is available right now, right next to him. It's a fact that competitive FPS gaming has not been able to deal with.
But still i doubt that it will help to attract new people to CS:GO. The thing is that most of the gamers are kids or casual players who just don't want to spent a lot of time trying to master the game. And in this case, Counter-Strike (even GO) is the hardest FPS game (except Quake). It's sad, but all these people will prefer to buy new CoDs and BFs every year than trying to play decently in CS:GO.
Another problem of GO is that it isn't interesting to watch if you don't know the game. For example, i played starcraft 2 only two times and got my ass kicked, but still it's very interesting for me to watch how pros are playing. While CS isn't that attractive to people, cuz (again) it's FPS.
Organize an international boycott of the game. Set a particular date as the start date. Get the word out to the entire community be it casual, hardcore, or professional. Let Valve know that on a particular day, the game will be boycotted until major changes are made.
Basically what I'm proposing is a protest. If the US, Egypt, Brazil, Turkey, etc etc can protest their entire country, we can protest a game.
If you want real change, you have to give Valve a reason to change. Losing money by paying for servers that no one is using is a start.
Just an idea.
If Valve are going to do anything regarding running a tournament it would've happened in the beginning of GO or it could happen if/when the game goes F2P.
I really hope ESL combines tournaments together like you said for a mega tourney once a year and let other lans take up the rest of the time.
At the mo, CS GO scene reminds me of the late stages of the Promod scene. A run of tourneys here and there with 10k normally the most and the top teams all going to different ones and not meeting up.
Really hope for a change but it will not happen unless the big companies band together or Valve step in...lol.
Post edited 2013-07-24 18:35:20
Only rare occasions you get them all together.
The similarities between GO and Promod are getting really scary, this is from a spectator/casual view.
The only plus Promod had over GO was the players put in more effort for the scene, without a doubt the players in go expect everyone to do everything for them.
Why not start a fund raising pot for a GO prizepool like Valve have done for Dota, or like TF2 fans have done in the past.
We have to start doing something sooner rather then sitting around waiting for the sponsors and others do it.
We have so many positive and passionate personalities in this scene and I see them all going to waste and not having and impact for the better.
It scares me that all it took to completely end the CoD4 Promod scene was the release of GO.
If the f2p game Cross Fire keeps growing and starts to get more national lans will the players swap over killing Go in the process.
At the mo it has the "bigger" tourneys, the gameplay is identical. So why not?
I really think it's going to take more effort from the players/org and everyone else involved in the scene to get the tourneys we want.
Everyone from 1.6 had everything handed to them, it's different now so different actions are needed from everyone, even the fans of the scene.
Again the points I was hoping you would pick up on are the similarities between GO and CoD4 Promod lans splitting up the top teams and how the players in CoD4 Promod where more productive for the scene.
How many lans have the players from GO organised? How many gaming councils have they organised to bring structure to their scene.
We need less speak and more actions that's bloody simple.
It's very easy to talk about it hear and write about it, even talk more about it on the podcast but it will not get the scene anywhere.
Why can't hltv step up and start organizing lans.
I can only imagine yourself and other CS fans who are articulate and have the gift of the gab have already tried to speak to organizers and sponsors to try and living things up and have failed in the process.
What if it was 10000's of ppl asking including the players, maybe they will listen.
I really want to see competitive CS scene prosper and do things its own way, like fps was back in the day leading it.
Again as you already know it's very easy talking about if/but, when will we see the CS GO movement like the NA revival.
Post edited 2013-07-24 21:23:47
i've hosted two finnish gather tournaments in cs 1.6 and i'm hosting one in cs:go in the coming weeks. i host the gather tournies in finland because they take a few emails to set up, and that's all. it ruins a weekend, but i can take that for doing something good for the scene sometimes.
hltv.org is not in the business of hosting lans. that's why we don't host them. we are in the business of covering tournaments, not hosting them. i don't doubt lots of people (including us) could host $10-20k tournaments, but who needs more of those - cs:go already has plenty.
only people who can realistically get $100k prize purses have worked in the industry for years and have a strong track record (e.g. esl, or valve who already have the cash), or some very strong connections (read: likely family ties) to people who work at marketing for big companies.
i do not have enough free time to start hosting tournaments more frequently, nor am i interested in doing so. i am very busy to begin with and i don't see any reason why i would want to host tournaments, when there are plenty of people already in the business of doing so.
na revival did not accomplish anything. it was a way for people to feel good about themselves without actually submitting any work to help anyone out in any even remotely meaningful way. na revival, if anything, just stole (a few) viewers from actual cs:go tournaments at the time and hurt the scene overall.
Post edited 2013-07-25 07:46:29
after this give it less than a year and all the other "3's" in valve should be released or given a estimated release and production confirmation, included new CS on new Engine
please credit me later, if anyone pretends they called it and is as spesific as me.
Of course after the way the community received it they won't make another CS title ever again. CSGO will be the last CS and everyone knows it.
You really think they would make new cs when ALOT of the player base has given up since GO happent to be such a pile of shit?
offcourse you dont base all your future actions on 1 mistake, you brush it off, as all adult minds and companies should do. you do not simply exit an entire market because 1 poor experience.
It's not impossible at all. People just have to be not stupid and talk to each other.
We have so many small tournaments right now that I don't really know (and care) anymore which one is when and what's it called. I actually stopped watching most matches because all seem so minor and I just don't care anymore. So lurrpis is perfectly right: We need a BIG one!
Post edited 2013-07-25 00:18:48
What really annoys me is that Valve is denying Counter-Strike, the game that made the company big, all support. CSGO at least deserves SOME financial support, they owe it to the game and the community that made them what they are today.
As a CS player it just feels like they don't give a fuck about the scene. (Which is nothing new I guess, they neglected 1.6 quite heavily as well)
Post edited 2013-07-25 01:07:14
If there is thing that could bring cs back to main stage it would be new cs game, with single player campaign on all platforms and good marketing.
Actually im not sure what I feel. One bit of me feels really sad since I kind of will allways love 1.6 even I havent played even one game since GO came.
Other part of me just wants to laugh at valve for ruining the game.
Post edited 2013-07-31 14:53:55
From the time when they released game(CS:GO), it was the beginning of the end.
I gave up on csgo, you should too. 1.6 will always remain in our memories.