Colombia0 (0)Make it Happen0 (0)YETTI 5v0rtex 512:00TheMongolzEmc13:00GODSENTFlipSid315:00SignatureMineski16:00MKLGR16:00KinguinArchAngels17:00Epiphany Bolt5FRAGS17:00eSubaTeam of Miracles18:00g3xOperation Kino18:00INTZBlack Dragons19:00PixelAT POWERHOUSE19:00INTZOperation Kino20:00EpsilonHellRaisers20:00No Problem!Refuse20:00g3xBlack Dragons21:00g3xINTZ22:00LegacyAVANT GARDE00:30LegacyAthletico02:00Legacyonestop03:00
Selfless2Muffin Lightning0SV0Make it Happen2Colombia2ReVamped05FRAGS2Mighty440ALTERNATE aTTaX2EURONICS0Epsilon0ArchAngels2EventMaps / statsoverpass (5:16)cobblestone (13:16)OtherNo demo - MatchpageLowLandLions16mCon11NokSuKao1Spirit2EventMaps / statsmirage (7:16)cobblestone (16:12)dust2 (14:16)OtherDemo - Matchpage
Titan have released an official statement explaining that Hovik "KQLY" Tovmassian has been dismissed from the team and furthermore criticizing Valve for lack of communication, as well as for not being given a chance to find their way back into DreamHack Winter through the LAN qualifier.
Following yesterday's VAC ban that hit Titan's player Hovik "KQLY" Tovmassian, an official statement by the organization was just released explaining that he was removed from the squad after having admitted to using third party software.
According to team's manager Jérôme "NiaK" Sudries Tovmassian admitted to using the software for a 7-day period in August "outside of a competitive context and on another Steam account".
"We haven’t yet fully grasped the magnitude of what is happening. It’s a huge blow to the players who have been preparing for this specific goal for weeks now… More than 3 months of work just vanished.
Obviously, we firmly condemn the act Hovik has been accused of comitting. As a professional player, it’s simply unthinkable to bahave in such a way.
Our huge disappointment is further reinforced by the decision not to allow any possibility for the team to attend this major. The players but also the partners, staff, and management of Titan have invested a great amount of work into this project; it is very hard to see everyone pay the price for an isolated case.
My thoughts go out to all the supporters too… The disappointment is huge but I know that we will come back stronger and even more determined following the hardship we are going through today." - Jérôme "NiaK" Sudries, team manager on Titan's website.
In addition to the release of Tovmassian, the statement addressed Valve's lack of communication towards the organization and calling out for "egregious misuse of power not allowing the chance to compete in the resulting qualifier":
"As an organization we represent our players in all matters related to their professional careers – we are their employers and when our employees falter, the responsibility to act still rests on our shoulders. Finding a way forward past this tragic situation was therefore our number one priority when the news broke, doing right by our fans and the CS:GO community, as well as our remaining team members.
Sadly in this, however, we found ourselves going up against the Valve brick wall.
Upon learning of our player’s VAC ban we immediately reached out to Valve, trying to start a dialogue regarding not only the ban but more crucially its impact on the rest of our team. After an initial email exchange, however, all communications from Valve’s side ceased. Even with these attempts being facilitated by DreamHack, the response to our enquiries regarding our DHW slot and a potential replacement fifth were still met with dead silence. Much to our surprise - instead of reaching out to us directly, once an initial decision had been made - Valve instead opted for a public press release, letting us know we had been disqualified by allowing us to read it ourselves at the same time as the rest of the community.
From our side of things, we were fully open to any and all discussions, be that in regards to a replacement fifth to keep the original invite, or the possibility of getting a new fifth and fighting our way back into the tournament through the announced November 22nd qualifier. At no point in time, however, did Valve call on us to take part in any dialogue surrounding their decision making.
The actions of an individual were instead needlessly allowed to affect an entire team. Valve opted for a unilateral decision, handing out collective punishment with complete disregard for team involvement in the problem solving process.
To compete in a Major is the end goal of each season and while the road to DreamHack has not been easy, both the organization and the players have invested time as well as money in getting there. As it now stands DreamHack and Valve have announced that a new qualifier will be held on Saturday November 22nd. As we understand it, going by the continued silence from Valve, coupled with their official press statement, Titan is not invited to take part in this alternate route back into the competition. There is no rule which can be cited that backs this decision up, and Valve has in no way attempted to justify their reasoning behind disqualifying the team as a whole.
It is to us an inexplicable ruling to exclude the team based off of the actions of one, and an egregious misuse of power not allowing us the chance to compete in the resulting qualifier. This in turn makes it seem as though the entirety of the team was guilty of an infraction, whereas the remaining team members were victims of circumstances."
Had they been invited to the LAN qualifier scheduled for tomorrow at Inferno Online Stockholm, Titan would use Jeremy "ioRek" Vuillermet, the team's coach, as a stand-in.
The team has previously secured a slot at ESEA Season 17 Global Finals set to take place in early December, but it is still unknown if they will be allowed to participate.
Post edited 2014-11-21 23:03:27
95% sure that the players on the List are using it. about 30-40% of the Pro scene is hacking. - SMN
Post edited 2014-11-21 23:06:36
and why would titan get a 2nd chance, you got to where you are now partly because of a cheater. you dont deserve shit
"we firmly condemn the act Hovik has been accused of comitting" he's not accused, he's already fucking sentenced, he was banned remember? stupid baguettes
Post edited 2014-11-21 23:11:34
However, by not letting they fight for a new spot, with a replacement, they are punishing the organisation for something they have almost no control over.
This hurts the organisations, and for something that should be Valve's job: keep the game clean. Now, either they will keep taking the risk, even though there's nothing they can do to prevent it from happening again, or they might as well no longer support CS:GO teams for now.
And noone buys the 'I only cheated a little bit in non-competetive matches'-story. Why would a pro risk his career over MM? -BS! He has used that cheat in competitive matches!
Severe punishment would make them think twice. THis is a profession and livelihood for some people. They are basically stealing money from them when they qualify with aid of cheats.
What I am saying is that KQLY isn't friends with Titan. He acted for himself. The others are not really friends with him. Why should they be at fault? KQLY was most likely rogue with his cheating. A LAN hack is undetectable by humans not looking for it. Why would Titan look over every member every second of the day? Even anti cheats didn't catch the hack for a long time.
Post edited 2014-11-22 00:32:10
For example rule in players contract: "if player is cought cheating then he would have to pay for all loses that organisation had + moral compensation + life ban in mayors from valve + other tournaments". This would be lesson. I'm with valve on this one! KQLY WAS COUGHT CHEATING NOT DID HE ADDMITED AND TURNED HIMSELF IN by titan/himself" !!!!
The funny part about hacking is, that you're supposed to do it without anyone noticing it. Because it's not allowed.
Every contract has restrictions concerning hacking, and using third party software in general, but that doesn't prevent people from using them.
A burglar doesn't stop stealing because the law doesn't allow it.
In general alot of mistakes were made on Valves side in dealing with VAC bans that have such an impact on a community.
I posted the following angry rant on the reddit thread when I saw Titan's whiny press release:
Titan "feeling" disrespected by Valve due to lack of professional courtesy does NOT balance the scale with regards to its team trying to attend DHW while using computer-assisted aiming (even if it is just ONE of its employees).
This is such a bizarre press release. Great storyline Titan!
1) They feel sorry for themselves because they have worked so hard as an organisation (ehhh...? yeah ... you know ... everyone... ALL the other teams have also worked hard...)
2) As leaders of the proud organisation TITAN, they take full responsibility for all actions their employees does (alright ... I agree with that ... good job... you have great management skills - good to see a professional organisation understand accountability)
3) Valve is unfair for not letting your team participate (are you serious?) and it was very impolite of them not to call your organisation first and give you a heads-up before the press release (alright, I will call Gabe's mother and ask her to teach him some manners...).
In what weird universe does that logic make sense? You were about to send a member loaded with the equivalent of a virtual bazooka to compete at DHW. That is a 100X worse than traditional doping in other sports. NO, OF COURSE YOU CANNOT PARTICIPATE IN THE EVENT!
And with your passionate speech about leadership and accountability above, how ... ??? why is that even a debate. You should be happy you are not banned for the next 2-3 major events. Yet, you are whining and complaining???WTF!
Stop whining and just apologize to the community for allowing one of your players to destroy the credibility of LAN tournaments (whether it was intentional or not ...). It is also our sport.
Thanks a lot for letting me watch DHW this year with an excitement-killing scepticism every-time I am going to see a player do something spectacular. YAY!!
Because before the DH it will ruin the event, i am pretty sure they have other names. Just a week or two after and people will say Valve let cheaters compete DH. But a month or two? Everybody will cheer them.
And why take down frenchies? because Valve knows the usual american doesnt care about a french, in fact he even likes the fact to be able to bash a french and see he has cheat.
1)Every member of that team, with the exception of one person has put their heart and souls into the gaming community, without any knowledge of the wrongdoings of others. wanna blame the jews for the holocaust too?
3) Dear lord son. When you're in court for a crime you've committed. All the evidence is weighed out and judged by multiple people.
You don't sit outside the courtroom for an hour while your trial is being held without you, your lawyer and friends. Then someone walks out, nudged at you 'Yeah you're going to jail for 5 years'.
Valve will not release any information about the VAC ban or the circumstances surrounding it, which is, at this point stupid. Transparency is the key here, show the community your bans are legit, show the teams their teammates aren't being reprimanded for nothing. Show people who're currently seeing their life's work, their reputation and their income fly away because of a rotten apple.
They had no knowledge of their teammates wrongdoing. And you're saying this is 100x worse then traditional doping? Are you so far out in lala land that you're saying some kid using a program to better place a crosshair over a pixel is worse then a grown man competing for millions of dollars, fame and reputation taking drugs to improve his performance?
Body altering effects, body destroyign effects even. Aside from a massive amount of health problems and unwanted side-effects, are obviously way worse then cheating on a game.
Because, in the end that's what it is. A game, E-Sports are still young, and not officially acknowledged as a sport. that's the only reason Valve can do as they please when it comes to releasing information to the public and choosing who to exclude from the competitive scene.
'Allowing one of your players'. Yeah, you're delusional.
And no, I'm not a Titan fanboy, I thought they sucked and have a general distaste for french people. but you're so blinded by your own sense of right that you can't distinguish reality from your own little rules.
Post edited 2014-11-21 23:33:45
Besides, I'm unconvinced that would be the case even if the number of VAC bans extends no further than those already identified.
There's no evidence from any other sport that because of problems with cheating only established players are accepted onto professional teams.
Titan was playing "with" LDLC spot, Epsilon kicked fxy0 then recruited back for DHW because they need him to have 3 players (DHW rules). If any other player than someone from that 3-must-be-players would be banned they could play with a stand-in. Nothing to do with cheating, just DHW rules for protecting players. If KQLY/apeX/maniac would retire before DHW they will be kicked out of their spot also.
It's really sad to see when such top level players do such a unprofessional things.
+100.Everyone who thinks he cheated just for 1 week and in MM games is a fool.
It's like people can't make up their minds what they want to hate him over.
Post edited 2014-11-22 01:10:01
About smn statement, how is he the only one in the pro community who is bringing up random percentages that were never spoken/heard of before? For all the pro teams atm at least one of them would catch someone hacking when looking through demos.
I wouldn't jump to conclusions so quickly without any evidence as of yet.
1. Pita and Shahzam screaming about BIG names who cheating.
2. Two cheaters KQLY and SMN said almost the same except smn's message to his friend with pro cheaters list (It went to the public not by him) but he confirmed it that this is true.
3. After SMN's list two pro cheater's banned. Can't be coincidence.
4. ESEA "More to come".
5. You really want more? ok one more
6. Many blogs from ppl involved in cheating scene. Rizla and VnG.
7. Kioshima's (from the cheaters list) very strange activity.
Post edited 2014-11-21 23:27:20
Valve has all the logs and this cheating problem are no bloody news..
You'd kinda hope that was inflated due to cheaters creating multiple accounts and it to be much less in the 'established' professional group. I'd expect less than 5% tbh.
I'm sceptical but intrigued.
Even Heaton said, "Since this has come to Valve's attention they've launched a huge investigation, so more players will probably get caught. These cheats are not something you can spot while just standing by the screens. It's a bit like doping for athletes."
Do people get access to all POV demos of each player without filing a cheat complaint with the tournament organizer? GOTV demos mask aim bots, as they are only 16 ticks, you cannot spot an aim assist of that kind with such a demo.
Post edited 2014-11-21 23:48:17
Post edited 2014-11-21 23:02:58
They whine when they themselves are to blame
However, I think Planetkey should be kicked out, and not the other way around where Titan and Epsilon should be allowed in.
Obviously it's unfair to the rest of the team, but that's just how it is. If you cheat you are ruining it for your team aswell as yourself.
With the seemingly huge amount of cheaters in the pro scene atm, Valve should set an example and show no compassion. A contracted player is the team's responsibility. It sucks for the ones affected, but that's how it is.
Planet Key needs to get kicked out right now for Valve/Dream Hack to retain some legitimacy. Or they need to allow Titan and Epsilon to try to qualify.
Valve and Dream Hack are not following their own rules
Post edited 2014-11-22 00:04:28
But of course Titan has the exact same rights as Planetkey, meaning that they are free to play qualifiers of upcoming major events with a new player (that isn't VAC banned) in their team.
Post edited 2014-11-21 23:55:15
But not letting the other 4 try to qualify as a new team is a totally different story.
Fixed your post.
Post edited 2014-11-22 00:14:40
and accusing valve of misuse of power really tops it off! Not a single word of remorse, or confession of failure.
for the players it is sad, if they really didn't know, which can also be doubted, but if they didn't, i'm very sorry for them.
And we need to see some pro-players voicing their opinion about this. Why are no one actively speaking out against this... not on twitter ... but in an article on HLTV, fragbite or similar.
I cannot imagine that someone haven't been contacted and asked for a response.
WEAK WEAK WEAK pro-scene. The days of protecting your "friends" are over if you want to keep growing CS:GO as a "sport".
However, in order for no more confusions about these things. E-sports should have an org (e.g. FIFA) where rules are applied to all pro gamers. There's so much going on and we rely on speculations/guesses.
This whole thing has been handled weirdly, with not allowing Titan and Epsilon to play the LAN qualifier with standins, with the qualifier having only 4 teams, not having more than 10 PCs, not allowing other teams to fly in with their own money. And then those 4 teams just need 1 win in the qualifier to make it to the huge sticker money. Not to mention that there were online qualifiers in the first place in which a number of people cheated (including the pre-qualifiers).
Even though some of the things had to be done the way that way, it isn't as fair as it could and should be. I don't like how it was handled, and I don't like how the community is reacting to it so I am calling people out.
The thing is, this hacking scandal have been in chaos because it's too much publicized which is should've have been dealt privately within the tournament and the teams. People are raging by the fact that 1 or more players have cheated and they're stuck on that mindset. That's how just things are.
wait what?? they are vac banned, what more proof do you need. for real.
Not allowing the 4 other players to play the qualifier tomorrow with ioRek is over-punishment for something they aren't guilty of.
I've already commented on the pointlessness and more importantly unfairness of "discouraging harboring" in a few other replies.
Any Pro team that gets busted with a hacker should just disband IMO it's pathetic.
Post edited 2014-11-21 23:20:17
The point is the other players are not guilty here at all, and neither is the organization. And they are not allowed a chance to qualify, without the cheater.
They couldn't have stopped this any more than say ESL admins if he cheated in Cologne. Should we just assume he did and let's punish ESL and never let them organize another major?
Like I said, very naive point of view.
Anyway I see your point but I disagree.
disagree all the fuck you want, doesn't make your point valid neither relevant
Post edited 2014-11-21 23:39:12
But you still think they should get punished.
You have no facts, no logic, and also you are russian just to make things worse.
Post edited 2014-11-22 00:24:18
Titan is invited to DHW
Titan is part of DHW
A member of Titan is found guilty of being a cheater.
Titan is disqualified from DHW.
Also, how do you manage to completely disregard that Planetkey ARE IN THIS TOURNAMENT? What trust are you talking about?
"it would suck even more for EVERYBODY else if these teams were not removed for having qualified with a cheater present on their team"
Where did I say they shouldn't have been removed? All I'm saying is the other 4 should have been given a chance in the qualifier as their individual accomplishments and team accomplishments prior to teaming up with KQLY greatly surpass anyone else not in the tournament.
P.S. Telling me to STFU and calling me a fucking disgrace should be enough for everyone to see who I am wasting my time on, but alas.
I am defending players who had NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CHEATS. They are as much to blame as you are when a coworker of yours turns out to be a serial killer.
KQLY's career is over, as it should be, and that has nothing to do with his former teammates or the organization.
Post edited 2014-11-22 00:17:22
Post edited 2014-11-22 04:12:00
since the decision is made by valve, we dont know. but maybe valve does...
and you can never know if something doesnt exist. innocent until proven guilty.
Post edited 2014-11-22 04:32:36
Titan were already qualified when they got busted. They were participants of the event when KQLY got busted and since having a cheater or VAC banned guy in your team is against the rules, the bust of KQLY meant the disqualification of Titan from the tournament (btw. being a participant of the qualifier would also have lead to a disqualification if KQLY had been VAC banned at that time, even if it was for a match many weeks before: VAC banned players are not allowed).
However cLy did NOT get busted while being a participant of the tournament or its qualifier. He was VAC banned before. The new rule that was introduced forbids VAC banned player to participate, but it does not forbid cLy's friends to participate. They didn't break any rule when they played the qualifier.
Titan has the exact same rights as Planetkey, meaning that they are free to play qualifiers of upcoming major events with a new player (that isn't VAC banned) in their team. But of course they aren't allowed to re-qualify for the event from which they just have been disqualified.
It's really not hard to understand...how can people fail at this..
Post edited 2014-11-22 05:12:21
Also, how do we know when those players cheated? There was nothing said about those players cheating at the qualifier. If there is evidence that is the case, then okay, but if not...
Post edited 2014-11-22 05:56:18
I mean I couldn't care less what you think of me, but you are a troll even if you don't realize it.
As far as the argument goes -
So you would say you should be punished if you are associated with a serial killer even though you were unaware of his crimes the whole time?
In the real world the way it works and should work is the person who screwed up gets punished and gets fired, while the rest of the company has to deal with bad rep while they carry on business as usual.
Post edited 2014-11-22 00:23:28
They got there because of their reputation for being a good team. If those results were inflated then they don't deserve to be there. If you harbor a cheater on your team, any match they played in is overturned. Period. This is no different, except their reputation is being overturned and they are not allowed to compete.
Furthermore, you have no idea if the other players knew or not. Why state this as fact?
Inflated results and overturning results has nothing to do with this. They were disqualified because of getting there with KQLY, so that matter is settled. Also, was he really cheating on LAN during their results? Do we know that? Nevertheless, they should be disqualified as they no longer warrant a spot according to major's rules of 3+ from last event's top8.
But the other 4 being punished additionally by not being allowed to qualify again, with no proof against them being guilty in any way but association, is just not right. It's not about power of DH and Valve, it's about fairness, why would anything else matter?
So unless Valve come out with more evidence they collected against other Titan players, there is no reasonable explanation for not allowing them the chance to qualify.
valve needs to make a statement and they're not going to do it by letting them play in the byoc with a ringer, sorry.
shitty situation but they should just bite the bullet and stop fucking complaining and blaming others, if valve throws cash at your team you should probably not play with a player who will fucking cheat and slander the reputation of the team, maybe they will learn in the future.
Do you know that? Do you have any realistic reason to even suspect that?
You can't know that, so saying something like this is pure ignorance:
"you should probably not play with a player who will fucking cheat and slander the reputation of the team"
If you are assuming Titan knew he was cheating, that is based on no realistic expectation or facts whatsoever, it's coming from an emotional response.
a team acts as 1, they made a poor teammate choice with a weak mind who resorted to cheating so now they will all pay the price. it doesn't matter if they knew or not.
stop being so short sighted about 1 team not playing in 1 tournament, think about the big picture and the future of the game.
"they made a poor teammate choice with a weak mind who resorted to cheating"
Do you not consider they were probably also scammed by him? Or are you suggesting that with the current financial stance of CS:GO, Titan should have hired a professional social profiler?
We can also go ahead and assume KQLY was cheating earlier in the year with LDLC. Then by the same logic we should punish that organization and its players, they also played with him and possibly knew he cheated, and eventually it led to them qualifying to this event in a way (and winning money along the way).
Team does not act as 1 when an individual goes rogue and destroys the team, because there is nothing the team could have done about it. You cannot keep placing blame to everyone associated with KQLY.
about the prizemoney:
if the use of cheats can be confirmed for a tournament ldlc won with kqly, i think they should repay the money.
it would really be good if valve and esea would provide the exact numbers they have on the pros who made money.
Of course they should return the money if it gets proven, but the point is it hasn't been proven and you don't see anyone requesting it.
And for all we know KQLY maybe didn't cheat at Cologne, so if LDLC aren't returning money without proof, why are Titan returning the slot?
Maybe Valve know he did cheat in Cologne, so then they should be returning the slot, but unless they know the other players cheated too, then the other 4+ioRek should have been allowed to play the qualifier.
valve will know, and at the moment all we can do is trust them to make the right decision. i'm not a fan of their information policy either, and the time for all this to surface is not optimal. but valve will have their reasons, and be they that they can't trust the organization or the other players to not have been involved in this.
i fully agree with joebagz and stratmatt and i think titan should fucking man up and stop making these ridiculous statements. find a new player that doesn't hack and move on. they're making the drama here.
and i don't mean the remaining players. if they didn't know, i'm sorry for them.
Post edited 2014-11-22 03:42:51
When did the serial killer get the 'associate' an advantage over another person? That's what happened with Titan having an advantage over enemies in all the matches KQLY played for Titan with cheats.
And in the real world when a employee screws he gets fired, and the rest of the company carry on, true, but the client the employee screwed for wasn't satisfied with the company and won't come back to that company and thus the company has to suffer that loss.
I you play as a team, you lose as a team. Be this in a job, game or just life itself.
My opinion? If anyone should get a new qualifier, it's all the teams Titan beat with KQLY playing in qualifying for this tournament and team Titan with a replacement fifth. That way all the teams have a fair chance in qualifying.
Let's take a football analogy. Let's say Messi is found to have used unauthorized substances that helped him be faster, stronger. He gets caught tomorrow. Does Barcelona get kicked from the league? Do they get banned for next season? Even if they would, does Neymar get banned from playing with another team in the season or the next just because he was sharing a locker room with Messi?
That's what's effectively happening here, kennyS, apEX, Ex6TenZ and Maniac are getting a slap in the face for something KQLY did, while they as players deserve every chance to appear at a major.
Also, they didn't lose, it's more that they were cheated by KQLY just like everyone else, and now they're getting punished for it as well.
You don't know this to be true.
While I accept the notion of innocence until guilt has been proven, that's not been your defence here.
You're suggesting (in caps no less), that they had nothing to do with the cheating. You don't know this to be true.
Which indicates you almost certainly already possess an established opinion, which intrudes upon your earlier argument regarding fairness.
I'm not disputing whether it should be about fairness; (however open to interpretation that notion really is in reality...), simply that much of your defence of Titan comes down to belief that they are all innocent.
At this stage it would unfortunately appear noone really knows one way or the other :(
We can't associate guilt just like that, hence those players cannot be blamed in any way for something KQLY did. Therefore they have nothing to do with cheats as of now and as of what is knowable to us.
If for example apEX or kennyS end up being banned tonight, the same would apply to the remaining players for tomorrow.
look m8 we don't know how often french dude was cheating and it is now verry important to disq. he + his team so things like this wouldn't happen again.
+ i think orgs have to take messures and include draconic points in contract. for example like " If player is cought cheating than he would have to pay for all expenses that org made for prepearing for event + moral compensation + lifetime disq." VALVE AND ORGS have to make messures to fight against idiots who cheat!
Why would that be the norm? Why not deal with the problem right away based on the facts that exist on the case.
KQLY should and has been fired from the company, they will get bad reputation for it, and that's it.
Why shouldn't the other 4 + ioRek get a chance to qualify? Haven't they done enough in CS:GO so far in a legit way, even before teaming up with KQLY?
Genuinely curious to know what opinion you and others would have on this as much of this entire affair appears to comne down to personal interpretations of what is 'fair', 'necessary' and 'suitable'.
(Please note, I'm not talking about Volvo's lack of communication here. Indeed I'm not entirely sure why they wouldn't contact a pro team in advance of this type of announcement. I suppose to a company like Valve, they may still look at 'pro gaming teams' as relatively onconsequential organisations. In many instances that may well be the case.)
I would be less inclined to stand for their players in the comments here if Titan hadn't complained as that would mean they care about it less, so automatically I would care less.
We can go on assuming they covered it up, or that they knew but wanted to avoid a scandal, or that one or more of the players were in on it with him, but I can't accept that people here are willing to lock all of the players away as if they know such information for sure. I know that being scared of that possibility is a human reflex, but so was hanging "witches" back in the day.
However, I wouldn't necessarily be inclined to think Titan's complaint was necessarily motivated by fairness.
As a commercial organisation it would at least to me be driven as much by financial concerns as any notion of fairness.
I'm also (hypotehtically) thinking of what Titan might have said if the player caught was from a much less recognisable organisation? Would there by unity?
For that matter what have other organisations had to say about it? I know Heaton isn't NiP in its entirety, however, he was quite blunt on national TV no less claiming that the problem was much larger than just these VAC bans...
All of that (and more) condition any response I might personally have as to Titan's position, as well as any notion of setting an example of professionalism for the future within pro CS; (although that of course might not be very fair in itself...)
Sure it's possible that Titan and their players are even more concerned financially, but there isn't much to be gained here at this point, they will not get invited all of a sudden.
I do like that they called out Valve for lack of communication, they are not the first ones to think that but are the first ones to officially state it, and that could eventually make a difference if others join in and it could lead to more transparency in cases like this.
Bottom line is they have now been painted as an organization that condoned cheating, even by Valve themselves due to having no public explanation. The players and organization have also lost the sticker money and the potential prize money, and they have wasted a lot of time and resources, which is all a steep price to pay if they truly are innocent.
And while some say that's deserved, I can't find a logical path to that. How can someone if they didn't know about the cheating deserve to have that much taken away, without even a chance to re-qualify?
Also I am utterly unconvinced by the claim by KQLY that he only used the hack for one week.
The fact he knew pros were using it, but didnt then mention it to either Titan or Valve, is beyond all reasonable suggestion.
Why would you happily allow such a cheat to remain in use, denying your team their professional earnings, when you have evidence that it exists and works?
I think there's enough common sense argument to suggest he used the hack for a long time, including in official matches.
While it's bad for those that didn't cheat, this naturally calls into question the legitimacy of any qualifiers he played in.
It's unfair on those who didn't cheat, but I feel the decision was fair for both this incident as well as any broader impact across the sport.
I am also not buying KQLY's story at all, nor Sf's for that matter, but I also firmly believe that if more people had known about it, it would be harder to keep a secret (and it's obviously not a cheat made 2 weeks ago).
I don't see how this helps the sport, it just over-punishes Titan's other players. Teams wouldn't have been afraid of using cheaters any less if kennyS & co were allowed to play the qualifier, it's like any other different team playing.
Not that teams using cheaters on purpose is really a common/expected thing in the first place. Organizations don't create cheaters.
Would be interested to read a balanced cross section bearing in mind the comments also made by other pros and team managers suggesting the problem is widespread.
//also re the qualifier, not sure what message it would send to invite Titan.
I would accept it if the debate had been over attendance at a regular qualifier, but this was an emergency measure caused by their player's actions.
I would agree that these two teams have perhaps been saddled with the brunt of the entire affair - possibly even bearing the brunt of a growing undercurrent of dissatisfaction with the effectiveness of the VAC system as a whole, but it is my personal opinion that of the options availabel this move is more likely to benfit the sport as a whole in the future.
Arguably not the most satisfactory decision for legit players on either team, but for a follower of the scene as a whole, perhaps more so.
As I said before it really does seem to come down to interpretation.
Post edited 2014-11-22 04:30:36
I don't see this in other sports, leagues or overseeing organizations are responsible to catch the players on enhancement drugs, not the teams. And the players get the punishment, not the teams.
You wouldn't hold the team responsible for KQLY robbing a bank, why is this so different only because his crime is in the game? The teammates and the organization are no more likely to have been involved in the bank robbery than in a personal cheating support group (they would have benefited financially from both).
I think any feeling of comfort you or anyone else get from Titan being punished is based on false expectations. As for the benefit to the sport, I think it's a placebo effect at best, and a costly mistake at worst.
I don't have a list of players, it was just popping up on my twitter feed over the last couple of days.
I also think most people - including you, are overlapping feelings of sympathy for other Titan players with recognition of the organisation. They're different things.
I can still feel sympathy for Titan players while firmly believing the team should recieve the DQ.
More so in fact after the statement by Titan. You yourself agree KQLY's excuse is bs, so the fact Titan have gone with it to protect the money they've already made shows they don't deserve the spot.
They're a commercial organisation so that's to be expected, but then so is a decision that hits them where it matters - which is what this was.
Too may people seem to be overlapping sympathy for affected players, with a decision made that might (hopefully) lead to greater professionalism across the board.
As for the 'placebo/costly', no clue what you're getting at so detail with examples would be appreciated.
I appreciate it's been hard on players who didn't cheat.
If I was a pro who played clean one of my first thoughts at this point would be the need for seperate regulation. It's the logical step for any new sport, e-sports included.
And if the community doesn't buy the placebo, then the only consequence that remains is the players missing out on the major.
Like I mentioned earlier to someone, what most people are doing here is getting blinded by the proximity of DH Winter, where as this has nothing to do with the actual event.
If the event was 2 months from now, they wouldn't be punished this way. And if they will ever be allowed to play again, then they might as well be allowed to play in this qualifier. So what I'm saying is this did not happen during DH Winter. It was an unrelated incident that happened to be close to DH Winter.
And I don't see how I am overlapping Titan's recognition here, not that I care much about it, but they are equally not to blame as the players. A bad apple happened to grow in their garden, what were they supposed to do about it if it looked fine at the start?
Their organization was hit with the disqualification from the tournament, which is the normal response. But then they were also hit with being disallowed to participate in the qualifier, which is overextending the punishment, and punishing someone for something another person did.
There is a general "teach them a lesson" vibe going around, which has nothing to do with fairness. Why do Titan need to be taught a lesson when as far as we know there was nothing they could have done to prevent this?
While there will undoubtedly still be cheats, you don't know that this DQ against the organisation hasn't/won't discourage pros from cheating in future.
There is in fact no way of knowing whether this move will have a positive or zero impact, so you're counter argument is as fallacious.
Re Titan, their official announcement echoed that of KQLY. Therefore their official position, to save face and money, was to lie. Therefore a punishment against the organisation would seem legitimate.
I'm aware the timeframe may suggest this was MORE legit post statement, which calls into question the initial Valve motivation. As I said, these teams may be carrying the burden of a collective sense of dissatisfaction with Volvo and their AC.
There is a difference between the players and the organisation.
Re The qualifier, if the decision was taken to punish Titan then it would seem to fall in line with what I've said. I also believe there is a sense of communicating beyond the immediate incident, which given the money that's now being invested and established ios understandable.
It's likely the same form of greed-driven decision making that led Titan to support the claim by KQLY that he, 'only cheated for a week'. They're being fucked by their own money-driven standards, so it's hard to feel sympathy for the organisation even when it's natural to feel sympathy for the players.
So I think it's quite logical that this can only lead to a placebo effect.
You only seem to want to punish Titan because they didn't accept their punishment silently, as you consider they are defending their financial interests more than being affected people who care about this.
You cannot assume things like this:
"It's likely the same form of greed-driven decision making that led Titan to support the claim by KQLY that he, 'only cheated for a week'."
What else can they do? Say that he cheated the whole time, while there is no evidence of that? They are operating on the same info that you and I have (as Valve refused to communicate). And I also wouldn't make a public statement about my team saying "He probably cheated in all the LANs we attended" if I didn't know so, nor would I insinuate it as there are much bigger implications if that is true.
So you are judging them based on your personal reaction to their statement which you found to be "greed-driven", while it is just a normal reaction. The only other option was to stay silent, and what good would that do? This way they may at least spark Valve into communicating more in the future.
Also, they were punished before making their statement, so why is their statement affecting your opinion of the punishment?
Post edited 2014-11-22 18:12:04
Equally I'm sorry but much of what you try to present as fact is incorrect.
In their official statement they were under no obligation to even mention or reproduce the, 'he cheated for a week' part - none whatsoever. However, they elected to, which suggests it was to distance themselves from any associative responsibility as the parent organisation. So suggesting 'what else could they do' is not fact, but rather your interpretation of events.
Also there is absolutely no evidence to suggest their releasing that statement will in any way encourage Valve to communicate more in the future. Once again this is simply your interpetation of events.
It's the same with suggesting, 'My argument is based on a very reasonable assumption that cheaters will still not care about how their actions affect others (whether that's teammates, organization, or the entire csgo scene), otherwise they wouldn't be cheating in the first place'.
I don't find that at all reasonable, it's just your assumption. I'm also clearly not the only one who believes th DQ may well discourage other pros from cheating in future because of the penalty invoked.
In fact MY OPINION - (just as you're clearly expressing your own), is that while cheating wont end completely, on balance this may well discourage pros from cheating to the same level...
I believe that's perfectly reasonable based upon following these events and the impacts of this penalty.
Your opinions and the way you express them are of course completely understandable. You're passionate about the subject, but this also means you're not as detached as you might like to think.
You're making assumptions, which even if you think are reasonable, no one else need agree.
Therefore presenting them as factual foundations for arguing that at best this might create a community or sport-wide placebo effect, was rather misleading.
I think it's best we move on, or at least I intend to as it's clear this isn't factual but rather opinion based.
That' entirely fine, but then neither should it masquerade as something it is not.
I'm telling you that I think that you are being affected by their statement, when in fact their punishment had nothing to do with that.
There is no fence to sit on from my point of view - because clearly and simply there is no evidence that Titan knew of any involvement so any punishment they are given is based on non-factual events.
Going from that to your conclusions about their greediness, your feet are not on the ground but instead you just want to see punished someone who you interpret is bad based on their statement after the events.
My opinion takes no such assumptions when it comes to the punishment, it is based solely on the fact that they are not proven to be guilty, hence shouldn't suffer for something KQLY did.
Their statement where they repeated what he said does in no way make me think they knew about it.
The assumption I make is about the purpose and effect of the punishment, which cannot even be discussed as fact as we have no official reasoning for it. So all we can do is assume - and I do assume that cheaters will never care about affecting others, because they already don't by the simple act of cheating.
And all I can add to that is that you are part of the placebo effect if you think that this will prevent future cheaters. It might as well really help, some placebos do but I think it's silly and more importantly it throws a team under the bus, so it's unfair.
Post edited 2014-11-22 18:50:25
Post edited 2014-11-21 23:24:39
THESE GUYS, as if it was so easy to spot.
Moreover, he probably used it at home in random pug matches...
TLDR but still I don't think MIRAA made the last sentence out of nowhere.
A team wins together and a team loses together. This same principle has to be applied to a cheating incident.
Valve did what they had to do - catch the cheaters - and followed their own rules (3 players for direct invite and no teams with vac players allowed in a major).
Beside that nobody can actually prove that the organisation didn't know about its member's misbehavior. If we wouldn't punish the clan, clans could just use 1-2 cheaters to succeed and if they get busted, the could continue with new players as if nothing happened.
Post edited 2014-11-21 23:24:13
But why should the other 4 team members suffer when there is realistically nothing they could have done considering the sophistication of the cheat?
Also, I know you are a troll and I am just replying so others who may read your comment would not blindly agree with your backwards logic.
Yes you're right, the opposite can't been proven either (meaning one can not prove that the clan "cheated" by allowing KQLY to use cheats), BUT the clan is guilty of violating their duty of only recruiting people who respect the competition's rules. This "law" is not written on any paper (in real sports and in the economy it actually is, and afaik during the CPL days the players and teams also had to sign an agreement, in which the clans had to guarantee for the honesty of their players), but this rule is absolutely necessary since the clan also profits from the criminal act of this one member (if he plays very good because of a cheat, it also helps his team).
Post edited 2014-11-21 23:46:24
First of all, CS:GO is far from big enough for organizations to have contracts and money that could actually justify a case in court against a player like this (which doesn't mean Titan won't try, I don't know, but it obviously isn't enough of an incentive for players not to cheat)
Secondly, how do you manage to disregard the details of this specific cheat that was detected, which obviously mean that there is no way anyone could have known unless KQLY told them (for which there is no evidence or indication)?
Thirdly, what rules had KQLY violated prior to joining Titan based on which you blame them for recruiting him?
All made up points, no realism in thinking, hence you are a troll to me, along with having seen your previous posts in the past days.
Not true. Beside not recruiting anyone without checking is background before and questioning his character, the clan can also state strong consequences for cheating in the player's contract.
"Secondly, how do you manage to disregard the details of this specific cheat that was detected, which obviously mean that there is no way anyone could have known unless KQLY told them (for which there is no evidence or indication)?"
Uhm, I just said that it can't be proven that the clan knew about KQLY's cheating nor can it be proven that the clan didn't know. If one would actually prove that the clan knew about it, I would fucking demand MUCH stronger consequences for the clan (btw I believe that NiaK is saying the truth and they didn't know).
My post in the past days? What's wrong with them? Wow, you really can't handle other opinions than yours..
Post edited 2014-11-22 00:10:29
You're talking as if you know there is no consequences for cheating in Titan's contract.
Those are the things I have a problem with.
So you should stop blaming KQLY's teammates and organization for something they couldn't have stopped.
Obviously not consequences that are strong enough...
Look, I understand your point and I agree that it's very unfortunate for the other players, BUT it was still the right thing to do. If you're not being strict here, you're opening the floodgates for teams that use cheaters (just 1-2 per team) to climb up the latter of success without having to fear any real consequences except for having to play a second qualifier in case they get caught.
It's not the right thing to do, those players have done nothing wrong, they don't deserve punishment.
About sending a message:
Why would seeing your team punished AFTER you are caught and your career is destroyed deter a morally challenged cheater in the first place? He just wouldn't care, it's no deterrent at all.
The other side of the fence about teams hiring cheaters to climb the ladder is just unrealistic, it's so far fetched because it would involve too many people in that whole fiasco.
So having Titan punished now will realistically have no bigger effect whatsoever that not punishing them would.
Teams were going to improve their contracts in order to take cheaters to court even after smn's ban, so this won't make a difference. And stricter and bigger punishment numbers on the contracts are the only thing that can help in the future, along with the whole "your career will be destroyed" thing.
"those players have done nothing wrong"
You can't even prove that (in the same way you can't prove the opposite). There are rumors that apEX knew about it for quite some time...
Valve/DH HAD to punish the clan, because of said reason. I'm not going to repeat myself.
"Why would seeing your team punished AFTER you are caught and your career is destroyed deter a morally challenged cheater in the first place?"
This punishment isn't supposed to be a message for KQLY, it's simply a punishment for the organisation Titan who didn't attend its duty.
"The other side of the fence about teams hiring cheaters to climb the ladder is just unrealistic,"
WOW! At this point I really need to control myself to not call you names. You know NOTHING! This exact thing is what harmed the German CS scene more than anything else and ruined the career of many very talented young German players. During the last 7 years of CS 1.6 this method became very popular in Germany and people used it to climb through the EAS up to the EPS. They teamed up with 1-2 cheaters, beat the other EAS teams, qualified for the EPS and often instantly (since they now had to play on LAN) replaced the cheating players with other players. This became such a big thing, that even well-known German CS pros admitted that it became almost harder to reach the top of the cheat-infested EAS than to perform well in the EPS. The EAS became a minefield of teams with 1-2 cheaters in their lineup. This made even players who are actually honest persons, very talented and who later became internationally well known CS players (such as Tixo, gob, cyx,..) so desperate that they played with cheaters. One of the things the ESL did to prevent this was to introduce a new rule that said if a players gets caught cheating, his entire clan will be banned from the actual season (and in worse case even completely), regardless of what the other players knew or not (there was btw also a rule that said if one can prove that you knew about a cheater but you did nothing against it, you will face the same consequences).
"So having Titan punished now will realistically have no bigger effect whatsoever that not punishing them would. "
No, it would allow other teams to do what I just explained and in case it goes wrong call for the same rights Titan got, meaning the right to re-qualify.
Post edited 2014-11-22 01:09:25
Why do you people keep coming to me with this backwards logic? Why would I need to prove that someone is innocent. It is normal to assume someone is innocent if there is no proof or indication of guilt (rumors that apEX knew could be less or more credible, but I haven't heard any credible ones so far and if anyone else has, it hasn't gotten substantiated in any way so it doesn't really factor in)
About the EPS story, let's assume it is all true, it is again no deterrent against cheating. Has the cheating decreased in EPS? smn & cLy just happened, which is far worse the the cuddy case for example.
Even when such punishment exists, it only means the cheater will not end up in team A because they are afraid of getting caught, but will instead play for team B who are not afraid, it's not like the cheater will not exist.
Punishing Titan and Epsilon here today will not magically stop teams C, D, E and so on tomorrow from getting a cheater to help them up if they wanted to.
Punishing cheaters and those who condone cheating is the only way to go, not creating collateral damage just to send a message.
You don't. But most of all: You can't. That's exactly the reason for this weird "rule" that punishes the whole clan, seems unfair, but is needed.
The rumor about apEX was all over the French CS websites...just let me ask you: What if it's actually true? Would you still lean against a penalty for the entire clan?
"Has the cheating decreased in EPS?"
Honestly I don't know it. I gave up on the German CS community two years ago...not following it closely anymore.
The cLy and smn case only seems worse to you because it concerned international CS, unlike the many many cheat scandals in the German 1.6 EPS (including top players) that did only affect the national competition (the whole scene became much more international, nowadays is much easier to attend international events with your team, back then you had to become #1 or at least top3 in Germany first, and then you got invited to international events, winning the EPS was the most important thing back then, today many teams don't give a fuck about the EPS anymore, they focus solely on getting into international events). Back then this cLy and smn cheat affairs would have been some classic EPS cheat incidents, it would have been a national cheat scandal, but barely anyone outside of Germany would have noticed it. Sorry went a bit off-topic..
"Even when such punishment exists, i...."
This became indeed a problem. "Became" because:
Professional clans, whose ambitions are to compete on international top level, whose players are under contract and who are dependent from their sponsors are very unlikely to ruin their image (and with that the entire organisation) by willingly recruit a cheater. Back then, only these clans were able to compete on international events (due to the fact that only they were able to pay for all the travelling and stuff). Thus the cheater scum was doomed to stay in national competitions. Nowadays it's possible for everyone to create an "amateur organisation" (no contracts and therefor no consequences in case of cheating) and compete in qualifiers of international events (something like that simply didn't exist back then). This makes what you said a real threat...but at least we should remain the trust in the established professional clans by not allowing them to work with cheaters without having to fear consequences (and thus punish them if they do even if it seems unfair).
Post edited 2014-11-22 02:25:16
And cheaters will certainly be no less inclined to cheat out of fear of their teammates' or organizations.
cLy is an EPS champion, having won his title AFTER the VAC ban. smn just made it through the group stage and secured ALTERNATE a place at the next Finals. I'm saying nothing has changed with that rule about organizations being punished. What's worse, ESL don't even consider VAC bans legitimate and still allowed cLy to play last season, and I don't know yet but I can only assume that they will allow ALTERNATE to keep their spot at the finals since smn wasn't ESL-banned.
Moreover, Planetkey didn't kick cLy as soon as he got the ban, they kept him on for 3 extra months until it was revealed he can't play at DH Winter.
So basically, the only actual deterrent here will be improving the anti-cheats and taking a stand against caught cheaters and forcing them out of the scene once and for all.
About apEX, I already said this in another comment, but even if it turned out that he also cheated not only knew, nothing would change concerning the other 3 players. Why should they be punished if apEX and KQLY were cheating together?
If it turns out that they all knew or cheated, then by all means ban them from the scene forever. But if they are innocent, they are getting over-punished already.
Post edited 2014-11-22 02:54:36
"those things will happen if cheaters provide the option"
...and if we don't punish clans who accept cheaters in their team, there will be more of these options.
I agree that the thing with cLy and smn is a shame.
"..I'm saying nothing has changed with that rule about organizations being punished"
Honestly I don't know if these rules also exist in the GO EPS. A lot of things seem to have changed...
But like I said: I'm not following that scene anymore, so I can't really say anything about the current situation and the rule-set (wouldn't surprise me if there's a loop hole than only covers ESL bans and not VAC bans).
Post edited 2014-11-22 03:16:57
Obviously that law is there to send a message, but I'm saying we don't need to send a message. What's next, forbid convicted criminals from having children cause many of them produce future criminals?
No one except the cheaters knew that a cheat like this was possible, that a guy can cheat and you can't see it on his screen. That someone could start up the cheat on your account and you would think you are on a good day and have no idea you are in fact cheating. You just cannot blame Titan for it unless you have proof they knew he was cheating.
Although it "feels" wrong:
An in reality I would get punished. I'm responsible for what I bring with me and rules are rules. In German there's a very famous saying "Unwissenheit schützt nicht vor Strafe", the English equivalent apparently is "Ignorance is no excuse" (though the exact translation actually is "ignorance does not protect your from the punishment").
"Obviously that law is there to send a message"
Not really...that law exists because (exactly like in our case) there's simply no way to find out if someone bought the fake watch although he knew that it's a fake watch or if he got scammed and thought it's a real one. This law is necessary because if we use the "not guilty until proven guilty" principle here, everyone could just claim that he didn't know that the watch he brought with him is fake (or in our case: that his team-mate was cheating).
"What's next, forbid convicted criminals from having children cause many of them produce future criminals?"
What kind of weird comparison is that...
"No one except the cheaters knew that a cheat like this was possible"
Again. WE DONT KNOW. You're just assuming that it was this way.
Post edited 2014-11-22 04:00:43
Then we should also punish gob b because of smn, let's also punish all of Sf's teammates and organizations (LDLC, Mystik, Epsilon), let's punish all of emilio's teammates ever.
You cannot go punishing people for things they probably couldn't have known. Sure, maybe f.e. stavros knew all along that cLy is a cheater, but the other 50+ players connected to these VAC banned guys maybe didn't. So let's punish 51 because of 1?
Also, my "weird comparison" was missing a link, that was about your watch analogy whose point I presume is that people shouldn't be able to bring those watches in to sell them in Switzerland as real and make a huge profit. Which is basically preventing a crime before it happens by instituting an nonsense punishment. So let's just prevent crime at the start by forbidding reproduction of criminals?
This logic cannot fly with me, stop trying to assume the worst about things we don't know or can't know. If society goes there, we will become one huge prison.
According to the info that was revealed about the cheat by smn and others familiar with it, this cheat was practically undetectable on LAN, so yea we do know. Even if someone suspected it, no one was ever able to prove it until ESEA did a few days ago, followed by Valve who built up on that. So how could have KQLY's teammates found out about him cheating if he didn't want them to?
Post edited 2014-11-22 05:21:39
Nope. I already explained this above. But it seems you still didn't get it...
The other players weren't declared guilty of having known about KQLY's cheating, the clan Titan as such was punished for violating the tournament's rules (no VAC banned players). If one would actually prove, that the other players have known about the cheating, they would/should have to face MUCH STRONGER consequences.
"Then we should also punish gob b..."
gob's team Alternate faced the same consequences as Titan does now, they were disqualified from the event. Yes it had little effect, since they already dropped out of the qualifier at that point, but now they actually lost the right to participate in this second qualifier, exactly like Titan (and Alternate was actually a legit candidate since they were next in line after myXMG).
Sf's team faced the same consequences as well: Disqualification from the event.
"Which is basically preventing a crime before it happens.."
The thing is: Not only the sale of such fakes is a crime, but also the import of them. You're punished for the later (the consequence of selling them is actually much higher).
The law that forbids you to import an illegal replica is btw. not just because you could sell and scam people with it, it's because you will most likely never buy the original one, thus the true developer/manufacturer lost income he deserves, it's about protecting patent rights (of course they can't undo your purchase, but the consequences one has to face will make people think twice before buying replicas).
I never accused KQLY's mates of knowing it..
Post edited 2014-11-22 06:08:13
There are no big contracts here between organizations and the event, there would be no reason why these 4 players shouldn't be invited to the qualifier based on previous merit, only under a different clan. But we know that wasn't presented to them as a possibility. Therefore, it means they are getting associated to KQLY's guilt.
Also, the tournament rule you are citing is referring to cases like Planetkey - you cannot show up with a VAC banned player (as they wanted to, and even played 2 pre-qualifiers with him). Titan's player was suddenly banned, they had no decision process there that would break tournament rules.
But even so, all the technicalities about organization Titan hold no water, the punishment for having a cheater is completely arbitrary from case to case in eSports, and due to the short time-frame here, in my opinion the players were un-rightfully discriminated against.
I still think you're a troll because of the way you express yourself in #352, which is the type of posts I've noticed in the past days and why I called you out on it. It was moderately fun debating anyway, but I will be heading to sleep now since someone has to cover this qualifier today :)
They were a part of Titan and therefor disqualified. Easy as that.
"there would be no reason why these 4 players shouldn't be invited to the qualifier.."
Except for the fact that they were in a team that got disqualified for not respecting the tournament's rules.
That's the price you got to pay if you play with a cheater.
"and even played 2 pre-qualifiers with him"
That was before the "no VAC banned players allowed" rule was introduced. And you know that.
"the punishment for having a cheater is completely arbitrary "
No it's not. It has since ever been "having a cheater in the team and therefor hurting the tournament/league's rules -> disqualification".
"There is nothing in this whole argument actually holding something against what I've been saying the whole time"
Yeah just keep telling that to yourself...
Anyways, let's just agree to not agree :)
Post edited 2014-11-22 13:29:34
Yea it is actually. Planetkey won one of the slots in DH Winter 2014 pre-qual #2 with cLy playing, and were allowed to take part in the main qualifier with a stand-in.
The rule for that wasn't introduced only then, that rule existed since the first Valve tournament, but was only publicized after the cLy incident before Cologne. It wasn't enforced for DHW due to errors in organization. Yes, I do know that.
Like I said, you can try to get technical, but that won't make you right.
I asked you what if they disassociate from the organization, why are they not allowed to play the qualifier then and now you're saying that the players are disqualified due to being a part of Titan, meaning they are guilty for associating with the organization that associated with KQLY.
That just can't fly, you don't get to punish people for something someone else did. Even with real world crimes, accomplices have to be proven not just assumed.
"That's the price you got to pay if you play with a cheater."
Paying a price for playing with someone who turns out to be a bad apple is not fair or right. It is scapegoating.
There's just no logical path here to punish the players themselves UNLESS they are proven to have known about the whole charade. And since we concluded that is not the case as of now, they should have been unpunished.
Yes they are. They are a part of Titan, they did represent Titan and were therefor also subject of Titan's punishment.
If an investment banker gets caught manipulating stock ratings (for his personal gain but most likely also his bank's advantage), not only he will face consequences but also the bank he's working for (regardless of its exact role in the crime, its role only determines the dimension of the punishment). If that penalty for example means that this particular bank will not get access to certain markets anymore, this will also hurt the other employees, but that's how it is.
"Even with real world crimes, accomplices have to be proven not just assumed."
And Titan's "crime" has been proven: Having a cheater in their rows.
Nobody said they were guilty of willingly using a cheating player. It's exactly like in my Swiss watch example...
"Paying a price for playing with someone who turns out to be a bad apple is not fair or right."
Not facing the consequence of disqualification for bringing a cheater into the tournament is not fair or right.
"And since we concluded that is not the case as of now"
No, you shouldn't conclude ANYTHING, because you simply don't know.
Post edited 2014-11-22 14:47:08
"Not facing the consequence of disqualification for bringing a cheater into the tournament is not fair or right."
The price is losing the original slot which they gained with KQLY and having to re-qualify.
"No, you shouldn't conclude ANYTHING, because you simply don't know."
But I do know that it HASN'T been proven that they knew as of this moment in time. It may get proven in the future, but since it isn't yet they cannot be blamed or punished for it. You cannot just blame and punish them just in case they might be guilty.
You're avoiding half of my points (like inconsistency in enforcing this rule with Planetkey and the fact that there is 0 proof of actual accomplices among the other players) and bringing up technicalities which do not realistically improve your point.
"The price is losing the original slot"
The consequence of having a cheater in the team has always been disqualification. And like I explained: for good reasons (avoiding the intentionally use of cheaters). "Disqualification" means you're fucking banned from the event.
"since it isn't yet they cannot be blamed or punished for it."
And they weren't. They were "only" blamed and punished for having brought a cheater into the competition.
I didn't avoid your other point. I just didn't feel like there's anything to argue about. Valve failed to enforce their rules correctly from the beginning, it's a shame. However that doesn't mean everyone has now the right to disrespect the rules.
"the fact that there is 0 proof of actual accomplices among the other players"
I never questioned this. I even wrote that myself like 4 times already. The point you seem to fail to understand is that they were never accused or punished for this.
Post edited 2014-11-22 15:17:30
The consequence of KQLY's VAC ban has been their disqualification, and then DH/Valve didn't invite them to the qualifier. Whether they did that because of what you're saying, or because of what others are saying (that Valve are trying to send a message), or because they just haven't given this enough thought (they decided within hours) is up in the air.
What I am saying is that the consequence of the other 4 players "suffering" for KQLY's crime, regardless of the reasoning, is unfair and unjustified. If there is such a rule, it shouldn't exist. If it was to send a message, it was unfair. If it was due to not giving it enough thought, it is a flat out mistake.
The inconsistency in enforcing the rules so far suggests that the rules are far from established and clear. The timeframe of the decision together with the information Titan put out about lack of communication, suggests that this case wasn't given enough attention.
So don't tell me that you know this is how it should be, and that it is deserved.
"They were "only" blamed and punished for having brought a cheater into the competition."
They didn't bring a cheater to the competition. A cheater was caught in an unrelated circumstance, not at the event, and he happens to be a member of their team.
The event hadn't started, the qualifier hadn't started. The short timeframe just blinds everyone to the fact that this actually has nothing to do with DreamHack Winter except for the fact that they should lose their slot due to the 3/5 rule. And if they were still fulfilling the 3/5 rule (imagine a NiP player gets banned), then they shouldn't even lose the slot.
Everything you have been saying is assuming that this happened during DH Winter, but it did not. So if they will be allowed to play ever in the future, they should have been allowed to play in the qualifier or at DHW (had they still fulfilled the 3/5 rule that granted them the slot), which is simply much nearer future.
Are you actually for real? Do you understand what "disqualified" means? It means you have no fucking place in the tournament anymore, you're BANNED and that ban won't just expire or disappear at some point. Why the fuck should a disqualified team have the right to get an invite to a qualifier from a tournament they just had been disqualified from? Disqualification is not equal to "dropping out of the tournament", it's a BAN.
"What I am saying.."
Look, we're turning in circles. I've explained you plenty times why it is perfectly justified and why that rule is absolutely needed. I'm pretty sure you're smart enough to understand it, but obviously not willed.
This happened while they were being official participants of the tournament and thus the violation of the rule "no VAC banned players" lead to their disqualification.
"They didn't bring a cheater to the competition."
They did. If they had kicked KQLY before he got busted, they probably would have been fine, but his release came after he got busted and thus one of their participants was a VAC banned player.
"The event hadn't started, the qualifier hadn't started."
But they were already official participants. Let's say you're an official participant of the qualifier and before your first match starts one of you opponents realizes that one of your player is VAC banned, and he reports him. Guess what? Even though the first match hasn't even started, you're going to get disqualified, because you did disrespect the participation rules.
We're running out of space here and let's be honest, we will never agree. It's a waste of time for both of us, thus I will stop here. Have a nice day.
Post edited 2014-11-22 16:23:25
The only reason they are getting punished here is the timing. If DH Winter was 2 months away, they could still have been official participants and they would have been allowed to replace him (if they actually still had 3/5, otherwise they would have been allowed to try to qualify), just like they will be allowed to qualify for the next major.
Bottom line, for the 100th time - Titan and their players did nothing wrong here (at least nothing was proven until now), and they don't deserve to be punished for something KQLY did in a context unrelated to the actual event.
I will never agree with you because you are wrong on every moral and ethical aspect, the technicalities do not overturn that.
I'm pretty sure the consequences stated in KQLY's contract (if there are even such consequences...wouldn't surprise me if they weren't) are ridiculously low. Especially considering how much money one can win nowadays in CS. If KQLY actually cheated from the very beginning (and if he otherwise wouldn't have achieved anything) he made actually quite a lot of money thanks to this cheat. Totally worth it.
Post edited 2014-11-22 01:30:01
Post edited 2014-11-21 23:46:17
But why would those around him, unaware of his actions, have to suffer to? Just so "the mob" would be happy that heads are rolling?
Also, at the moment it is entirely inconclusive whether they have benefited monetarily or not, as in whether he cheated on LAN or is now telling the truth (personally I would be inclined to think he is lying about only the 7 day trial, but we have no idea).
But let's stop jumping to conclusions?
They should suffer because the whole credibility of competitive cs is at stake here. You have to make the whole idea of cheating as unappealing as possible. Big part of why cheating is so prevalent in mm and other places is the attitudes towards it. People were calling for re-instituting robiin in majors and now some people are calling for 1 year ban for KQLY for fucks sake. In my opinion you go overboard with the sanctions just to set an example.
Let ex6tenz & others come to next major, maybe next time they choose their teammates more carefully. Everything they achieved with him is tarnished. This tried once with my main account is such horseshit that it makes me cry that some people believe it.
And this is where the argument stops with me. I just can't stand for things like that. Punishing innocent people in order to send a message? No thank you.
Figure out a fair way to send the message instead.
This is maybe DHW way of saying: don't cheat or you're gonna involve a lot of people including losing lots of money along the way.
Titan isn't banned forever in the tournament they can join on the next major. If the other remaining members could qualify so easily then Teams who has a cheater in their midst will just 'always' deny the fact that they know the player/s is/are cheating in order to 'try' to qualify for this tournament again. (which is really possible)
And teams who knowingly have a cheater in their midst will not be deterred by Titan's case, they will also sit out and "join on the next major".
So this is not helping the scene in any way, it's just denying us the chance to see some of the legit best players in the world, like kennyS, at the biggest tournament - because of something their teammates did.
unfortunately yes. titan can just sit this one out because this is how DH's handling their situation of things. :/
I agree, this is not helping the scene. The whole hacking thing is, not only KennyS not being able to play this tourney. It's a huge big fire that DH is extinguishing. They don't have control on that fire. I think their lack of trust made them make the decision. Like a panic choice
I'm just saying possible scenarios of reason behind DH's action but only DH can only answer to those arguments you've been pointing out. I know we deserve some answers, but we've been asking questions on the people who doesn't provide clear answers.
Post edited 2014-11-22 04:10:18
Valve dont wanna ban others players, cuz DHW could got fucked?
Sad that KQLY would ruin the efforts of kennyS, Ex6TenZ, and Maniac.
1+(-1) = 1+1= 2
2 = 2 balls
I'm done he deserves it
One guy failed, whole team gets slap in da face.
Post edited 2014-11-21 23:06:01
Post edited 2014-11-21 23:06:07
Titan orga wanted to be sure it's not a mistake, but Valve simply didn't answer them at all.
Dear Gayb Newell! Your servers are shitty, your anti-cheat allowed to play with cheats for more than a year, our ping and loss % are increasing randomly when playing competitive MM, the only thing you care about is making f*cking money! You fatf*ck, fix your MM servers already!
they will lose a lot of money because they are not a part of the stickers anymore.
NaVi -markeloff - edie
He could have cheated in some of the games that gave titan (ldlc) a secure spot this year.
As pointed out in the statement, they had invested a lot of time and money into this, they were and are an integral part of the scene - I can't see how the punishment is proportionate here, especially considering the team is more or less a victim of the incident. Not even communicating with the team in such a situation is ridiculious. I thought the whole outrage against cheating is based upon the idea that CS is a legit sport? In no legit sport would a team be treated like that.
Also, If you're talking about doing 'everything right' you will hand over all winnings back to event organizers, for the whole period since you recruited KQLY.
It does sucks for teams to get booted from a Major but in the end of it all, we are uncertain as to how much of an impact KQLY had on Titan. What i am saying is that virtually every game KQLY had could have been in vein. Thus, Titan's history is also put in vein.
I guess what i am saying is that because Titan had a cheater for an unknown period of time, it is uncertain whether that impacted any game they had to get to DH. (ironically i think Titan was invited? and then they did the roster swap). I unno. I'm blowin poop out my butt. Maybe i should think about it more but the way i see it, more teams have a chance to prove themselves of victory that were initially stripped away due to Titan.
Broken game, full of cheaters, VAC not working, not caring about legit players, not caring about legit teams if not called Nip.
However the bans on Titan and Epsilon are justified and the remaining players should be welcome to participate in the next major and/or it's qualifiers.
I think it's fair that Titan don't get a second chance in this last minute qualifier for the simple reason that there's no way of proving KQLY's innocence in the original qualifier.
I'm also very interested in how (if what KQLY says is true) Valve all of a sudden detects a cheat being used back in August. It's either a lie from KQLY's side (which seems most likely right now) or a way of detection that boards well for every other player since that most likely mean they are clean, atleast from this program, or whatever it is.
Post edited 2014-11-21 23:18:12
"I think all of NiP's titles should be retracted because it's impossible to prove that GTR wasn't cheating."
very bad logic, Titan should most definitely be allowed in the qualifier
Post edited 2014-11-21 23:20:08
I feel more sorry for the team losing to Titan than the four remaining Titan members even though it sucks for them aswell.
I feel very sorry for both people losing to teams KQLY played in and the current members of Titan, neither deserved to be cheated by this piece of shit KQLY.
Delpan however, that's a whole other story ^
JW is and always was clean tho, I can tell you that :)
although I'\m a bit sad as they are a good team, it seems fair.
In no real sports team gets punished when 1 player uses doping.
Post edited 2014-11-21 23:27:12
Even if lans will be monitored more closely there still are tons of online leagues, qualifications for cheating.
With these private cheats, its almost impossible to tell when good player is cheating.
And i honestly thing that valve will not give a single fuck about it, these bans are not their merit.
And fucking titan over because of 1 cheater they could not possibly control, cmon...
I never implied that Titan could know KQLY cheated if he was properly discreet. I'm arguing that legal action threatened in contracts and carried out against players will prevent huge cheating scandals in the future.
I'm with Valve on this one!
p.s. - kqly was kicked out of previous team. official statement was like "he was ragging". because of this ban maybe reason was something else. Titan isnt poor org in bangladesh prision they have a gaming house and they all live together. i'm sure rest of the baguets knew it!
Titan's finger pointing is just making them look so, so bad.. They say 'The actions of an individual were instead needlessly allowed to affect an entire team.' Don't they realize, that it's the collective actions of 5 individuals that make the team in the first place? In other words, every single game they play, they are allowing the actions of individuals to affect the entire team; only in *this* scenario, however, are they protesting. They should be ashamed, and take responsibility.
Again, ty Valve, for banning the players that are ruining things.
Post edited 2014-11-21 23:52:40
Post edited 2014-11-21 23:23:17
omg, volvo is so evil..
Why is the CZ-75 still in the game. Why couldn't they at least ban the CZ from Dream Hack weeks ago?
Why when people try to have a serious conversation about game play with Valve it always feels like they are not really listening or at least giving a shit about what people say? Then they release an update trolling people with more chickens, etc.
Post edited 2014-11-22 02:01:49
be upset all you want boys.
that's how it's always been, how it's always gonna be.
maybe next year.
Post edited 2014-11-21 23:27:42
Post edited 2014-11-21 23:27:48
FOR GOD SAKE, is this guy stupid and he thinks we gonna believe that?
Dude if you are trying out a cheat, you don't do it on your main account.
KQLY is cheating since at least 2 years now
It seems like valve is just saving money and don´t want to have more workers in the support!!!
In this case it´s even worse: Yeah we will just stop a career of a Pro Player right now, because we do :Kappa: No reason, no information even to the Titan team, gg Valve, once again!
Post edited 2014-11-21 23:34:14
Post edited 2014-11-21 23:37:37
I think its a nice warning to the pro scene.
And btw, why the hell are you going to cheat online if you had proved yourself on lan that you are a good player? Thats just nonsense stupid act to me.
Post edited 2014-11-22 00:09:41
Edit - Valve needs to work closely with these organizations to ensure they are within the rules whilst competing in online events, doesn't matter if Valve aren't apart of it.
Post edited 2014-11-22 00:17:32
who knows if they knew about it or if his teammates knew about it, maybe it didn't have an impact on anything, maybe he and in consequence his team screwed over a ton of other team out of who knows how many tournaments they don't deserve to be in this one the employer needs to have their players under control they will only learn it if there are consequences
It sounds to me that titan is trying to blame valve for getting banned at DHW.
Post edited 2014-11-22 00:26:47
now think why teams like nip went from top to top15. too much skill in this pro scene. too much fucking coders and noob valve. gg noob game noob life
Good for CsGo and Make organisations better research before contracting players
Post edited 2014-11-22 00:29:38
Beside that, the lack of communication regarding other topics is also absurd. But even more absurd, in my opinion, is Titan even considering a chance to get back on the event.
or fnatic get stomped again like they did in all their time and jw escapes ban :D
Hypothetically speaking, if you were a fan of Titan and all this unfortunate information came to light, would you be more or less impressed by your team for taking the painful but (arguably?) more prinicipled stance, of accepting the DQ with dignity and resolving to preparing for the next major?
Genuinely curious to know what opinion you and others would have on this as much of this entire affair appears to comne down to personal interpretations of what is 'fair', 'necessary' and 'suitable'.
(Please note, I'm not talking about Volvo's lack of communication here. Indeed I'm not entirely sure why they wouldn't contact a pro team in advance of this type of announcement. I suppose to a company like Valve, they may still look at 'pro gaming teams' as relatively onconsequential organisations. In many instances that may well be the case.)
I honestly hope that Titan will fine KQLY for at least some of the lost revenue DH winter would have brought the team.
KQLY u suck.
Post edited 2014-11-22 01:25:01
bb don't come back
Wouldnt be good to let Orgas and teams to the event after cheater realve.
It's upto Titan as an organisation to have the right amount of trust in their players and to make good decisions as a company. If their players want to fuck them over then they've obviously made a poor decision somewhere along the line. The players are representative of the organisation and unfortunately although the blame is on the player, the responsibility is with Titan.
they should be allowed to have another shot at the major.
and kqly we don't believe you cheated on another account you are a fucking liar.
Just a thought, don't take it too seriously. The thing is the whole situation reminds me of HUDs and seating scripts in online poker. If you can't fight it - legalize it for everyone to recalibrate the balance back.
Post edited 2014-11-22 04:34:59
but ofc .if they will alert one more time . lifetime ban !
I feel sad cause I won't see KennyS @ DH, but I'm glad they don't let Titan participate. Fuck cheaters!
Post edited 2014-11-22 12:23:49
If you get caught hacking, the player is commited to pay a 50.000 € repair and refund 50% of his earnings (salary + prize money + stickers)
hacking problem in pro scene solved. ez
Post edited 2014-11-22 12:43:26
If teams had the resources to check if their players cheat then sure I'd agree with it. But they can't and it's not like hacks are obvious like they were in the early 00s.
Being dqd and having to requalify is punishment enough for the other 4 players. It's not really fair to them at all that they can no longer compete in this event. There's really no way for them to know for sure that their teammate was cheating. For all we know he might have never cheated in an actual match or while playing with the team.
If anything Valve is just as much at fault for not catching either of them sooner. If they were busted earlier the two teams would have gotten a 2nd chance like planet key.
If I'm in the shoes of any of the remaining 8 players I'd be really pissed that I got cheated out of being in a tournament for something I had no control over. Really not fair at all and I'm sure the people saying titan should suck it up would be complaining too if they were in the same position.
Post edited 2014-11-22 14:46:34
reached out for private cheat coder, probably paid for the hacks, uses them in mm only.
if you seriously believe he didnt use cheats in real matches go see a doctor dude ;)
CHECK IT xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDd
Post edited 2015-02-08 02:49:03