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KQLY removed; Titan criticize Valve
Time: 2014-11-21 23:01
Game: Counter-Strike: Global Offensive

Titan have released an official statement explaining that Hovik "KQLY" Tovmassian has been dismissed from the team and furthermore criticizing Valve for lack of communication, as well as for not being given a chance to find their way back into DreamHack Winter through the LAN qualifier.

Following yesterday's VAC ban that hit Titan's player Hovik "KQLY" Tovmassian, an official statement by the organization was just released explaining that he was removed from the squad after having admitted to using third party software.

KQLY out of Titan 

According to team's manager Jérôme "NiaK" Sudries KQLY admitted to using the software for a 7-day period in August "outside of a competitive context and on another Steam account".

"We haven’t yet fully grasped the magnitude of what is happening. It’s a huge blow to the players who have been preparing for this specific goal for weeks now… More than 3 months of work just vanished.

Obviously, we firmly condemn the act Hovik has been accused of comitting. As a professional player, it’s simply unthinkable to bahave in such a way.

Our huge disappointment is further reinforced by the decision not to allow any possibility for the team to attend this major. The players but also the partners, staff, and management of Titan have invested a great amount of work into this project; it is very hard to see everyone pay the price for an isolated case.

My thoughts go out to all the supporters too… The disappointment is huge but I know that we will come back stronger and even more determined following the hardship we are going through today." - Jérôme "NiaK" Sudries, team manager on Titan's website.

In addition to the release of KQLY, the statement addressed Valve's lack of communication towards the organization and calling out for "egregious misuse of power not allowing the chance to compete in the resulting qualifier":

"As an organization we represent our players in all matters related to their professional careers – we are their employers and when our employees falter, the responsibility to act still rests on our shoulders. Finding a way forward past this tragic situation was therefore our number one priority when the news broke, doing right by our fans and the CS:GO community, as well as our remaining team members.

Sadly in this, however, we found ourselves going up against the Valve brick wall.

Upon learning of our player’s VAC ban we immediately reached out to Valve, trying to start a dialogue regarding not only the ban but more crucially its impact on the rest of our team. After an initial email exchange, however, all communications from Valve’s side ceased. Even with these attempts being facilitated by DreamHack, the response to our enquiries regarding our DHW slot and a potential replacement fifth were still met with dead silence. Much to our surprise - instead of reaching out to us directly, once an initial decision had been made - Valve instead opted for a public press release, letting us know we had been disqualified by allowing us to read it ourselves at the same time as the rest of the community.

From our side of things, we were fully open to any and all discussions, be that in regards to a replacement fifth to keep the original invite, or the possibility of getting a new fifth and fighting our way back into the tournament through the announced November 22nd qualifier. At no point in time, however, did Valve call on us to take part in any dialogue surrounding their decision making.

The actions of an individual were instead needlessly allowed to affect an entire team. Valve opted for a unilateral decision, handing out collective punishment with complete disregard for team involvement in the problem solving process.

To compete in a Major is the end goal of each season and while the road to DreamHack has not been easy, both the organization and the players have invested time as well as money in getting there. As it now stands DreamHack and Valve have announced that a new qualifier will be held on Saturday November 22nd. As we understand it, going by the continued silence from Valve, coupled with their official press statement, Titan is not invited to take part in this alternate route back into the competition. There is no rule which can be cited that backs this decision up, and Valve has in no way attempted to justify their reasoning behind disqualifying the team as a whole.

It is to us an inexplicable ruling to exclude the team based off of the actions of one, and an egregious misuse of power not allowing us the chance to compete in the resulting qualifier. This in turn makes it seem as though the entirety of the team was guilty of an infraction, whereas the remaining team members were victims of circumstances."

Had they been invited to the LAN qualifier scheduled for tomorrow at Inferno Online Stockholm, Titan would use Jeremy "ioRek" Vuillermet, the team's coach, as a stand-in.

The team has previously secured a slot at ESEA Season 17 Global Finals set to take place in early December, but it is still unknown if they will be allowed to participate.



Post edited 2014-11-21 23:03:27
2014-11-21 23:01:46
End of August, it put me in contact with a program supex0 (he had solid arguments and explained to me that many players pros used its program). - KQLY

95% sure that the players on the List are using it. about 30-40% of the Pro scene is hacking. - SMN

gg csgo

Post edited 2014-11-21 23:06:36
2014-11-21 23:05:43
fucking frenchmen trying to put the blame on someone/something else. kqly cheated for way longer than 1 week and everyone knows it.

and why would titan get a 2nd chance, you got to where you are now partly because of a cheater. you dont deserve shit

"we firmly condemn the act Hovik has been accused of comitting" he's not accused, he's already fucking sentenced, he was banned remember? stupid baguettes

Post edited 2014-11-21 23:11:34
2014-11-21 23:08:02
Removing Titan's and Epsilon's spot was the right thing, simply because they used a cheater (even if he didn't cheat in that particular case).

However, by not letting they fight for a new spot, with a replacement, they are punishing the organisation for something they have almost no control over.

This hurts the organisations, and for something that should be Valve's job: keep the game clean. Now, either they will keep taking the risk, even though there's nothing they can do to prevent it from happening again, or they might as well no longer support CS:GO teams for now.
2014-11-21 23:10:47
If they can't control their players in a way to refrain from cheating, then they shouldn't be allowed a second chance. If a player only let's himself down if caught, it's much easier to convince oneself to do a bad thing. If your actions have negative repercussions on other people - even your friends - you are less likely to do that bad thing. Excluding Titan and Epsilon was the right decision.

And noone buys the 'I only cheated a little bit in non-competetive matches'-story. Why would a pro risk his career over MM? -BS! He has used that cheat in competitive matches!
2014-11-21 23:21:27
But forcing them to regain a spot in a qualifier would already be a punishment.
2014-11-21 23:23:22
Not for the top teams, as they would most likely qualify again. Therefore the risks when getting caught cheating would be minimal.

Severe punishment would make them think twice. THis is a profession and livelihood for some people. They are basically stealing money from them when they qualify with aid of cheats.
2014-11-21 23:32:13
So a team that would qualify regardless shouldn't be allowed to make it into a tournament? Only a low tier team that qualifies against other low tier teams should make it to the major leagues?
2014-11-21 23:38:47
Well, they shouldn't use a cheater - then they wouldn't get disqualified!
2014-11-21 23:52:27
Just like Planet Key Dynamics?
2014-11-22 00:22:23
yes, because titan knew that kqly was cheating. /s
2014-11-22 09:20:54
pls watch thooorin's video
2014-11-21 23:35:55
Just because you are on a team doesn't mean you are truly friends. Not all players care about their teammates like NiP do.
2014-11-21 23:36:17
You are right. They might not be. But it works the other way around too. Teammates will lookout for cheats and kick the player if they catch him cheating, because they know they will get punished too.
2014-11-21 23:38:10
Those people are not friends at all. Just accomplices.
2014-11-21 23:40:50
Did you read my post?
2014-11-21 23:42:17
"If your actions have negative repercussions on other people - even your friends - you are less likely to do that bad thing."

What I am saying is that KQLY isn't friends with Titan. He acted for himself. The others are not really friends with him. Why should they be at fault? KQLY was most likely rogue with his cheating. A LAN hack is undetectable by humans not looking for it. Why would Titan look over every member every second of the day? Even anti cheats didn't catch the hack for a long time.

Post edited 2014-11-22 00:32:10
2014-11-22 00:24:43
Yeah my guess is it's just a triggerbot with some discreet head-snapping.
2014-11-22 12:49:27
The aim assistants that some people use isn't really a "trigger bot." It's supposed to correct your bullet impacts. It's not like those TF2 aim bots kids use.
2014-11-22 19:41:21
I see. I haven't use CS hacks fortunately :P.
2014-11-22 22:55:49
It's not like you shouldn't be robbed off of your titles in the recent months "olof". I mean come on at least stop cussing the whole team, lol. It's one player and it's not even clear, as I stated earlier, if you deserve the titles because of you know who.
2014-11-25 10:02:38
it should be in their fucking contracts that they are not allowed in anyway to use/try/dream of cheats!
2014-11-21 23:53:15
It may well be after this example has been set.
2014-11-22 00:27:53
For example rule in players contract: "if player is cought cheating then he would have to pay for all loses that organisation had + moral compensation + life ban in mayors from valve + other tournaments". This would be lesson. I'm with valve on this one! KQLY WAS COUGHT CHEATING NOT DID HE ADDMITED AND TURNED HIMSELF IN by titan/himself" !!!!
2014-11-22 01:12:43
And you think they don't have to sign a contract, explicitly expressing that third party programs aren't allowed in any way, shape or form?

The funny part about hacking is, that you're supposed to do it without anyone noticing it. Because it's not allowed.
Every contract has restrictions concerning hacking, and using third party software in general, but that doesn't prevent people from using them.
A burglar doesn't stop stealing because the law doesn't allow it.

In general alot of mistakes were made on Valves side in dealing with VAC bans that have such an impact on a community.
2014-11-24 14:00:44
How are they supposed to control something they can't detect? It can be very hard to tell someone is a cheater if they use good cheats. Can Titan really be blamed for not realizing KQLY cheats? Only if we can prove they knew something about it IMO.
2014-11-22 01:39:30
KQLY didnt cheat during his Titan days, it was before he joined Titan.
2014-11-22 14:45:37
Yeah cause KQLY allways speaks the truth?
2014-11-22 16:02:20
Can you prove otherwise?
2014-11-22 16:09:25
He got caught cheating? That qualifies as a pretty obvious lie in my eyes atleast.
2014-11-22 17:15:53
He did say he was cheating but before joining Titan.
2014-11-22 18:35:56
Totally agree about excluding Titan and Epsilon.

I posted the following angry rant on the reddit thread when I saw Titan's whiny press release:

Titan "feeling" disrespected by Valve due to lack of professional courtesy does NOT balance the scale with regards to its team trying to attend DHW while using computer-assisted aiming (even if it is just ONE of its employees).

This is such a bizarre press release. Great storyline Titan!

1) They feel sorry for themselves because they have worked so hard as an organisation (ehhh...? yeah ... you know ... everyone... ALL the other teams have also worked hard...)

2) As leaders of the proud organisation TITAN, they take full responsibility for all actions their employees does (alright ... I agree with that ... good job... you have great management skills - good to see a professional organisation understand accountability)

3) Valve is unfair for not letting your team participate (are you serious?) and it was very impolite of them not to call your organisation first and give you a heads-up before the press release (alright, I will call Gabe's mother and ask her to teach him some manners...).

In what weird universe does that logic make sense? You were about to send a member loaded with the equivalent of a virtual bazooka to compete at DHW. That is a 100X worse than traditional doping in other sports. NO, OF COURSE YOU CANNOT PARTICIPATE IN THE EVENT!

And with your passionate speech about leadership and accountability above, how ... ??? why is that even a debate. You should be happy you are not banned for the next 2-3 major events. Yet, you are whining and complaining???WTF!

Stop whining and just apologize to the community for allowing one of your players to destroy the credibility of LAN tournaments (whether it was intentional or not ...). It is also our sport.

Thanks a lot for letting me watch DHW this year with an excitement-killing scepticism every-time I am going to see a player do something spectacular. YAY!!
2014-11-22 16:48:22
would you still say that when some americans players will start to get down? Valve will do nothing for a month or two, they will let the DH end, wait a moment, then ban. Why?

Because before the DH it will ruin the event, i am pretty sure they have other names. Just a week or two after and people will say Valve let cheaters compete DH. But a month or two? Everybody will cheer them.

And why take down frenchies? because Valve knows the usual american doesnt care about a french, in fact he even likes the fact to be able to bash a french and see he has cheat.
2014-11-23 10:18:25
Mate you're about as delusional as it gets.

1)Every member of that team, with the exception of one person has put their heart and souls into the gaming community, without any knowledge of the wrongdoings of others. wanna blame the jews for the holocaust too?

3) Dear lord son. When you're in court for a crime you've committed. All the evidence is weighed out and judged by multiple people.
You don't sit outside the courtroom for an hour while your trial is being held without you, your lawyer and friends. Then someone walks out, nudged at you 'Yeah you're going to jail for 5 years'.
Valve will not release any information about the VAC ban or the circumstances surrounding it, which is, at this point stupid. Transparency is the key here, show the community your bans are legit, show the teams their teammates aren't being reprimanded for nothing. Show people who're currently seeing their life's work, their reputation and their income fly away because of a rotten apple.

They had no knowledge of their teammates wrongdoing. And you're saying this is 100x worse then traditional doping? Are you so far out in lala land that you're saying some kid using a program to better place a crosshair over a pixel is worse then a grown man competing for millions of dollars, fame and reputation taking drugs to improve his performance?
Body altering effects, body destroyign effects even. Aside from a massive amount of health problems and unwanted side-effects, are obviously way worse then cheating on a game.

Because, in the end that's what it is. A game, E-Sports are still young, and not officially acknowledged as a sport. that's the only reason Valve can do as they please when it comes to releasing information to the public and choosing who to exclude from the competitive scene.

'Allowing one of your players'. Yeah, you're delusional.

And no, I'm not a Titan fanboy, I thought they sucked and have a general distaste for french people. but you're so blinded by your own sense of right that you can't distinguish reality from your own little rules.
2014-11-24 14:43:51
What happens with this behavior from Valve: Teams will not be open to accepting unproven players. They will only choose players they trust, players with a lot of prior experience and good reputations. This will make it very hard for any new skilled players to make it to a team like Titan.

Post edited 2014-11-21 23:33:45
2014-11-21 23:33:18
That may depend upon which professional players (if any) are subsequently banned.

Besides, I'm unconvinced that would be the case even if the number of VAC bans extends no further than those already identified.

There's no evidence from any other sport that because of problems with cheating only established players are accepted onto professional teams.
2014-11-22 00:30:19
Please get your facts. Epsilon and Titan was not removed due too players cheating, they were removed from their guaranteed slots due to NOT having at least 3 players in team that placed TOP8 in previous major.

Titan was playing "with" LDLC spot, Epsilon kicked fxy0 then recruited back for DHW because they need him to have 3 players (DHW rules). If any other player than someone from that 3-must-be-players would be banned they could play with a stand-in. Nothing to do with cheating, just DHW rules for protecting players. If KQLY/apeX/maniac would retire before DHW they will be kicked out of their spot also.
2014-11-22 09:15:23
if kqly hid it well, it's not ex6, kenny, apex, manaic fault
2014-11-21 23:11:11
ya, agree. But that you also have to consider that the DHW spot achieved with a cheater in the team [though the teams were different then]. So nobody is actually depriving ex6, kenny, apex or manaic a chance to play in DH as the spot itself is not a valid one.

It's really sad to see when such top level players do such a unprofessional things.
2014-11-21 23:41:42
remember remember 20 of november
2014-11-21 23:11:23
"fucking frenchmen trying to put the blame on someone/something else. kqly cheated for way longer than 1 week and everyone knows it."

+100.Everyone who thinks he cheated just for 1 week and in MM games is a fool.
2014-11-21 23:27:09
But, but... Doesn't everyone cheat in MM?
2014-11-21 23:42:33
If he admits to cheating in tournaments he will get sued.
2014-11-21 23:30:37
2014-11-21 23:40:23
People keep saying JW can't hit anything with the AWP, yet at the same time they also keep saying he's going to be busted soon.

It's like people can't make up their minds what they want to hate him over.

Post edited 2014-11-22 01:10:01
2014-11-22 01:09:44
i didnt say that he can't hit anything lol
2014-11-22 01:41:30
2014-11-22 01:14:42
Sorry but I wouldn't take any of that as true atm. Supex0 coder sounds like he is simply spewing bullshit just to sell his product to players and unfortunately we have seen those who took the bait and I guarantee there won't be "many" more players who use the cheat and get vac'd.

About smn statement, how is he the only one in the pro community who is bringing up random percentages that were never spoken/heard of before? For all the pro teams atm at least one of them would catch someone hacking when looking through demos.

I wouldn't jump to conclusions so quickly without any evidence as of yet.
2014-11-21 23:19:36
Sorry but there is too much coincidence:

1. Pita and Shahzam screaming about BIG names who cheating.
2. Two cheaters KQLY and SMN said almost the same except smn's message to his friend with pro cheaters list (It went to the public not by him) but he confirmed it that this is true.
3. After SMN's list two pro cheater's banned. Can't be coincidence.
4. ESEA "More to come".
5. You really want more? ok one more
6. Many blogs from ppl involved in cheating scene. Rizla and VnG.
7. Kioshima's (from the cheaters list) very strange activity.

Post edited 2014-11-21 23:27:20
2014-11-21 23:24:16
Agree. And I think we deserve to know where and when. Also think some "higher up's" are accomplices of rigging tournaments and so on.
Valve has all the logs and this cheating problem are no bloody news..
2014-11-22 00:38:50
As ridic as 30-40% sounds this matches the figure I found when I was involved with a certain gaming league as VAC statuses were introduced on player profiles.

You'd kinda hope that was inflated due to cheaters creating multiple accounts and it to be much less in the 'established' professional group. I'd expect less than 5% tbh.

I'm sceptical but intrigued.
2014-11-22 14:28:58
smn is a real life friend of the coder, so you can trust the statements
2014-11-21 23:26:13
Don't care about their relationship, you simply don't throw around ridiculous percentages around without any evidence and expect people to believe it.
2014-11-21 23:30:22
Well, if you have competed in CS, you wouldn't be surprised with such percentages.

Even Heaton said, "Since this has come to Valve's attention they've launched a huge investigation, so more players will probably get caught. These cheats are not something you can spot while just standing by the screens. It's a bit like doping for athletes."
2014-11-21 23:54:02
Are you serious ? If this percentage was true legit teams would be fighting over cheaters long ago...
2014-11-22 01:49:08
You must not be listening at the right time.

Do people get access to all POV demos of each player without filing a cheat complaint with the tournament organizer? GOTV demos mask aim bots, as they are only 16 ticks, you cannot spot an aim assist of that kind with such a demo.

Post edited 2014-11-21 23:48:17
2014-11-21 23:47:03
not 16 tick...
2014-11-22 01:41:07

Watch a GOTV demo with cl_interpolate 0.

Post edited 2014-11-22 01:53:41
2014-11-22 01:48:19
very conservative numbers :D
2014-11-22 00:59:09
remember remember 20 of november
2014-11-21 23:11:53
think its fair.. Who knows if the team took advantage of it. You would never know,..
2014-11-22 01:16:27
2014-11-22 03:47:44
liek dis if u crid ;(
2014-11-22 10:06:22
how dare you valve checking on the professional players proved on lan. Kapparoni

Post edited 2014-11-21 23:02:58
2014-11-21 23:01:47
2014-11-21 23:01:58
2014-11-21 23:02:02
gj kqly!!!
2014-11-21 23:02:07
2014-11-21 23:02:12
All respect for Titan = gone
They whine when they themselves are to blame
2014-11-21 23:02:33
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
How are they to blame? KQLY is the one to blame, the whole team and organization shouldn't suffer for it.
2014-11-21 23:03:12
But they shouldn't blame Valve either. The only one to be blamed here is KQLY and noone else. Of course the team is banned, what other consequences are there to be expected? Titans are free though to press charges from KQLY for fraud and theft but mostly for being such a douchebag.
2014-11-21 23:07:50
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
There really is no reason not to allow them to try to qualify, just as Planetkey were allowed to do it as long as they don't use cLy.
2014-11-21 23:11:26
2014-11-21 23:14:13
# 55, seriously. Btw. pretty lame excuse by KQLY, seems like a forced statement to me so that Titans do not look like fools in public. Made up story and pretty much matches Titans statement.
2014-11-21 23:17:17
Nice argument.
2014-11-21 23:28:00
2014-11-21 23:33:31
2014-11-21 23:36:58
I agree that as long as Planetkey was allowed to qualify, Titan and Epsilon should be aswell.

However, I think Planetkey should be kicked out, and not the other way around where Titan and Epsilon should be allowed in.

Obviously it's unfair to the rest of the team, but that's just how it is. If you cheat you are ruining it for your team aswell as yourself.

With the seemingly huge amount of cheaters in the pro scene atm, Valve should set an example and show no compassion. A contracted player is the team's responsibility. It sucks for the ones affected, but that's how it is.
2014-11-21 23:41:17
Okay. With that logic if your adult family member does a crime you go to jail too.

Planet Key needs to get kicked out right now for Valve/Dream Hack to retain some legitimacy. Or they need to allow Titan and Epsilon to try to qualify.

Valve and Dream Hack are not following their own rules

Post edited 2014-11-22 00:04:28
2014-11-22 00:03:15
The difference is that Titan was/did already qualified/qualify for this event with a cheating player (which is considered a "crime"), and that's what made them lose the right to re-qualify for this very event with another player.
But of course Titan has the exact same rights as Planetkey, meaning that they are free to play qualifiers of upcoming major events with a new player (that isn't VAC banned) in their team.

Post edited 2014-11-21 23:55:15
2014-11-21 23:53:02
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
That's what made them lose the spot, completely justified mind you.

But not letting the other 4 try to qualify as a new team is a totally different story.
2014-11-22 00:01:33
That's what made them lose the spot AND the right to re-qualify (in a special invite-only qualifier that has to be hold only because of their failure).

Fixed your post.

Post edited 2014-11-22 00:14:40
2014-11-22 00:13:16
agreed and titans reaction (as an organisation) is a joke. presenting themselves as the victims, when their hacking player earned them a nice amount of money in the past months...
and accusing valve of misuse of power really tops it off! Not a single word of remorse, or confession of failure.

for the players it is sad, if they really didn't know, which can also be doubted, but if they didn't, i'm very sorry for them.
2014-11-22 03:18:36
100% agreed ... Valve's lack of communication should be the least of their worries right now.

And we need to see some pro-players voicing their opinion about this. Why are no one actively speaking out against this... not on twitter ... but in an article on HLTV, fragbite or similar.
I cannot imagine that someone haven't been contacted and asked for a response.

WEAK WEAK WEAK pro-scene. The days of protecting your "friends" are over if you want to keep growing CS:GO as a "sport".
2014-11-22 17:00:20
who knows what was discussed in that brief exchange of emails, maybe Titan's people said something that made it worse for them in front of volvo. Kudos to Gaben and volvo for not tolerating any cheaters, even "pro's".
2014-11-22 00:00:36
Give me a Planet Key or I will cly a river.
2014-11-22 00:05:56
I don't buy that teammates didn't know... Titan as an org. there is a chance that they didn't... Some of the teammates would notice something was wrong with his game play... Allow Titan as an org to qualify but with whole new team...
2014-11-22 00:55:06
if they repay their earnings to the teams they stole from, maybe they should get that chance...
2014-11-22 03:20:43
Most probably DHW doesn't want anymore fuck ups that's why they just DQ the whole team. It's their way of being cautious. Business is business. A lot of money on the line that's why they're doing what they're doing. We can't involve our emotions (pity) on these hard working players because its how things are.

However, in order for no more confusions about these things. E-sports should have an org (e.g. FIFA) where rules are applied to all pro gamers. There's so much going on and we rely on speculations/guesses.
2014-11-22 02:21:22
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
Actually, the emotions are probably the leading force here - DH and Valve are either scared or trying to send a message and are hence punishing players they have no proof against and who might be completely innocent. Just so they can be on the safe side. That's not fair.

This whole thing has been handled weirdly, with not allowing Titan and Epsilon to play the LAN qualifier with standins, with the qualifier having only 4 teams, not having more than 10 PCs, not allowing other teams to fly in with their own money. And then those 4 teams just need 1 win in the qualifier to make it to the huge sticker money. Not to mention that there were online qualifiers in the first place in which a number of people cheated (including the pre-qualifiers).

Even though some of the things had to be done the way that way, it isn't as fair as it could and should be. I don't like how it was handled, and I don't like how the community is reacting to it so I am calling people out.
2014-11-22 02:32:50
I agree. Lack of communication from the other side of the party is one thing and the qualifier is really handled poorly. It's pretty obvious that the tournament is really not prepared for this kind of issue. They could've just postpone the tournament but most likely they don't want to lose any more money. dog eat dog world

The thing is, this hacking scandal have been in chaos because it's too much publicized which is should've have been dealt privately within the tournament and the teams. People are raging by the fact that 1 or more players have cheated and they're stuck on that mindset. That's how just things are.

2014-11-22 03:13:49
"DH and Valve are either scared or trying to send a message and are hence punishing players they have no proof against and who might be completely innocent. Just so they can be on the safe side. That's not fair."

wait what?? they are vac banned, what more proof do you need. for real.
2014-11-22 05:52:59
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
I am talking about other Titan and Espilon players, the other 8, not KQLY and Sf.
2014-11-22 06:02:15
I can understand why; assuming their reasoning is trying to discourage teams from harboring cheaters. I believe Titan when they say they had no idea has was cheating, but at the same time, of course they will say that. At the end of the day, only the team really knows if they were aware of KQLY's behavior, and from that perspective it makes perfect sense to punish the entire team, if not only to discourage intentional harboring. I see this the same as leagues overturning matches because a player was found cheating, punishing the entire team with a loss, rather than replaying that match without the cheater.
2014-11-22 03:18:55
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
Overturning matches is the equivalent of them losing the spot they gained by reaching top8 with KQLY at Cologne. So that already happened.

Not allowing the 4 other players to play the qualifier tomorrow with ioRek is over-punishment for something they aren't guilty of.

I've already commented on the pointlessness and more importantly unfairness of "discouraging harboring" in a few other replies.
2014-11-22 03:48:40
2014-11-22 10:07:45
Valve claims they listen to the competitive players and have open conversations with them whenever the players want. That isn't true. They choose to do what they want, when they want, as they want. Everyone has to live with it. Valve is closed off to competitive CS players, only time they open up is for PR.
2014-11-22 00:00:39
I completely agree with u. Who's to say that valve isnt abusing their power now? They could look the other way when a certain player is caught cheating? because of their relationship with that player/ organization, because of their nationalities, because of how it would effect the company as a whole, etc..we will never know the answer of these questions, because we all know that valve is always closed off to competitive CS players.
2014-11-22 08:40:01
Agree. This is fraud and actions/consequences is a must. We are not talking about a freaking Sandstorm here.. And with that said Valve are to blame. You are missing the whole picture. They have logs of everything. The cheat we're talking about is downloaded to the workshop. And on purpose leaving flaws in the system by still using bs Vac-system is just...bs. I'd like you to use your brain dude.
2014-11-22 00:48:11
Yes they should. They got a hacker on their team and nobody in the entire organization notices or does anything about it? GTFO of here.

Any Pro team that gets busted with a hacker should just disband IMO it's pathetic.
2014-11-21 23:09:03
just my thougths
2014-11-21 23:10:47
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
Very naive point of view if you think this cheat was detectable and that this was preventable. Same goes for the replies below.
2014-11-21 23:13:19
Are you serious? Other teams might have lost a spot at a major because of a cheater. That's why they must be disqualified in order to let the others give it a try.

Post edited 2014-11-21 23:20:17
2014-11-21 23:18:11
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
Or maybe he really never cheated in a tournament and no one lost anything? Since when is "might have" enough to draw such conclusions?

The point is the other players are not guilty here at all, and neither is the organization. And they are not allowed a chance to qualify, without the cheater.

They couldn't have stopped this any more than say ESL admins if he cheated in Cologne. Should we just assume he did and let's punish ESL and never let them organize another major?

Like I said, very naive point of view.
2014-11-21 23:21:22
Since he is a liar. VAC bans don't come from nowhere. He cheated, he had been banned. This single fact makes him and his team's performance untrustworthy.
Anyway I see your point but I disagree.
2014-11-21 23:31:25
"my speculations are facts"
disagree all the fuck you want, doesn't make your point valid neither relevant
2014-11-21 23:34:35
The guy cheated (and only god knows when and for how long), this isn't a speculation, it's a fucking fact.

Post edited 2014-11-21 23:39:12
2014-11-21 23:37:39
But it might just have been 1 week playing some public. How the fuck does that make Titan to blame? He might have not even been in Titan at that time, if what he says is true(which you can't prove that it's not).
But you still think they should get punished.

You have no facts, no logic, and also you are russian just to make things worse.

Post edited 2014-11-22 00:24:18
2014-11-22 00:23:43
It's pretty straight forward:

Titan is invited to DHW
Titan is part of DHW
A member of Titan is found guilty of being a cheater.
Titan is disqualified from DHW.

2014-11-22 00:42:55
2014-11-22 03:24:15
nice racism there
2014-11-22 03:27:12
2014-11-21 23:38:16
Yo, Dude. Chill the fuck out. Cause it doesn't fucking matter. Titan is NOT the only team preparing for DHW. There are literally like 1000+ people including players and staff that are preparing for DHW. On top of that, there are literally thousands upon thousands of legit players and teams who would absolutely LOVE the chance to compete at DHW. The trust of these people is infinitely more important than making sure the guys on titan get a fair deal. Nobody knows how often these players have been cheating and how their cheating may have impacted their team's ability to qualify for this tournament. YES IT SUCKS for the innocent people on titan, but it would suck even more for EVERYBODY else if these teams were not removed for having qualified with a cheater present on their team. STFU already you and thorin are a fucking disgrace.
2014-11-21 23:33:53
I'd love to play football against CR7 and messi but I can't :( fuck fifa
2014-11-21 23:40:41
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
Nope, again another guy with backwards logic. Fairness is all that matters, not some quasi-trust by the community.

Also, how do you manage to completely disregard that Planetkey ARE IN THIS TOURNAMENT? What trust are you talking about?

"it would suck even more for EVERYBODY else if these teams were not removed for having qualified with a cheater present on their team"

Where did I say they shouldn't have been removed? All I'm saying is the other 4 should have been given a chance in the qualifier as their individual accomplishments and team accomplishments prior to teaming up with KQLY greatly surpass anyone else not in the tournament.

P.S. Telling me to STFU and calling me a fucking disgrace should be enough for everyone to see who I am wasting my time on, but alas.
2014-11-21 23:40:45
Dude, you are defending a cheater's team instead of pushing for harsh punishments for hackers and those associated with them. Thank fucking GOD that you are in no position to make any decisions regarding this matter.
2014-11-21 23:58:10
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
Ok another troll in the building, no problem.

I am defending players who had NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CHEATS. They are as much to blame as you are when a coworker of yours turns out to be a serial killer.

KQLY's career is over, as it should be, and that has nothing to do with his former teammates or the organization.
2014-11-22 00:04:24
Yeah and their career isn't over, just their participation in this event because they QUALIFIED WITH A CHEATER ON THE TEAM. They don't get a second chance to qualify. That is unfucking fair to all the other teams who were not yet participating in the event. Calling people who disagree with you a troll just shows that you are grasping at straws.
2014-11-22 00:10:33
NO... It shows you are ignoring reality, as Planet Key Dynamics are allowed to compete.

Post edited 2014-11-22 00:17:22
2014-11-22 00:16:55
2014-11-22 03:32:08
Do you want Planet Key to be removed?
2014-11-22 03:34:27
if they used cheats to qualify for this event, yes i want them removed and they should try qualifying for the next.
2014-11-22 03:51:32
Okay. So you want teams removed from the event IF they cheated to qualify. Do we know that Titan and Epsilon cheated their way into Dream Hack Winter 2014? Do we know Planet Key Dynamics didn't cheat their way into Dream Hack Winter 2014 (they only cheating was with CLY)?

Post edited 2014-11-22 04:12:00
2014-11-22 04:11:13
lets say its most likely both used their hacks to qualify. especially considering kqlys jumpshot on pasha ;)
since the decision is made by valve, we dont know. but maybe valve does...
and you can never know if something doesnt exist. innocent until proven guilty.
2014-11-22 04:19:30
Like this?


Or this?


Post edited 2014-11-22 04:32:36
2014-11-22 04:23:20
quite similar. i heard confirmation that ex6tenz was suspicious about this move:
2014-11-22 04:32:55
I haven't looked into Olof yet, but he does stand out to me after watching some matches. If someone asked me, "Who does the most jumping kills?" I would say, "Olof is the first name that comes to mind."
2014-11-22 04:39:01
we'll have to wait and see. but if olof gets banned, this drama will be kqly x 1000
2014-11-22 04:45:57
It would be cool if you go back and review every demo of Olof and see how many jumping kills he gets. Then watch the demos to see if his bullet impacts behave the same way SMN's did.

Post edited 2014-11-22 04:49:59
2014-11-22 04:48:23
The difference is:

Titan were already qualified when they got busted. They were participants of the event when KQLY got busted and since having a cheater or VAC banned guy in your team is against the rules, the bust of KQLY meant the disqualification of Titan from the tournament (btw. being a participant of the qualifier would also have lead to a disqualification if KQLY had been VAC banned at that time, even if it was for a match many weeks before: VAC banned players are not allowed).

However cLy did NOT get busted while being a participant of the tournament or its qualifier. He was VAC banned before. The new rule that was introduced forbids VAC banned player to participate, but it does not forbid cLy's friends to participate. They didn't break any rule when they played the qualifier.

Titan has the exact same rights as Planetkey, meaning that they are free to play qualifiers of upcoming major events with a new player (that isn't VAC banned) in their team. But of course they aren't allowed to re-qualify for the event from which they just have been disqualified.

It's really not hard to understand...how can people fail at this..

Post edited 2014-11-22 05:12:21
2014-11-22 05:06:07
Where is the rules that state Titan and Epsilon cannot play the qualifier Valve is having for their former spots at DHW '14? If they can play another qualifier after DHW, why can't they play the one coming up with new players? What is the difference between playing now or playing later?

Also, how do we know when those players cheated? There was nothing said about those players cheating at the qualifier. If there is evidence that is the case, then okay, but if not...

Post edited 2014-11-22 05:56:18
2014-11-22 05:53:03
Because they just have been disqualified from that event.

Yes, we don't know if they cheated to qualify, but their teams violated the tournament rule that says no VAC banned players are allowed.

Post edited 2014-11-22 06:07:00
2014-11-22 06:06:12
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
Come on man, you told me to STFU and that I am a fucking disgrace.

I mean I couldn't care less what you think of me, but you are a troll even if you don't realize it.

As far as the argument goes -
So you would say you should be punished if you are associated with a serial killer even though you were unaware of his crimes the whole time?

In the real world the way it works and should work is the person who screwed up gets punished and gets fired, while the rest of the company has to deal with bad rep while they carry on business as usual.

Post edited 2014-11-22 00:23:28
2014-11-22 00:23:09
dude everyone can see your point, but how can you think it is a good idea to let them back in this tournament in any way. It would make DH and Valve look very weak.

They got there because of their reputation for being a good team. If those results were inflated then they don't deserve to be there. If you harbor a cheater on your team, any match they played in is overturned. Period. This is no different, except their reputation is being overturned and they are not allowed to compete.

Furthermore, you have no idea if the other players knew or not. Why state this as fact?
2014-11-22 01:00:28
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
There is no indication let alone proof they knew, so they shouldn't be punished for it, hence why I am in my argument holding that side as a hypothesis.

Inflated results and overturning results has nothing to do with this. They were disqualified because of getting there with KQLY, so that matter is settled. Also, was he really cheating on LAN during their results? Do we know that? Nevertheless, they should be disqualified as they no longer warrant a spot according to major's rules of 3+ from last event's top8.

But the other 4 being punished additionally by not being allowed to qualify again, with no proof against them being guilty in any way but association, is just not right. It's not about power of DH and Valve, it's about fairness, why would anything else matter?

So unless Valve come out with more evidence they collected against other Titan players, there is no reasonable explanation for not allowing them the chance to qualify.
2014-11-22 01:19:12
that's your opinion, but it's not mine. they should not have a chance to qualify.

valve needs to make a statement and they're not going to do it by letting them play in the byoc with a ringer, sorry.

shitty situation but they should just bite the bullet and stop fucking complaining and blaming others, if valve throws cash at your team you should probably not play with a player who will fucking cheat and slander the reputation of the team, maybe they will learn in the future.
2014-11-22 01:37:51
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
What you're saying would all be fine IF you knew Titan had condoned and/or covered up his cheating the whole time.

Do you know that? Do you have any realistic reason to even suspect that?

You can't know that, so saying something like this is pure ignorance:

"you should probably not play with a player who will fucking cheat and slander the reputation of the team"

If you are assuming Titan knew he was cheating, that is based on no realistic expectation or facts whatsoever, it's coming from an emotional response.
2014-11-22 01:54:20
i'm not saying that!! i'm saying the punishment is deserved whether they knew it or not it is only fair to the other teams and to the organizers reputation!!

a team acts as 1, they made a poor teammate choice with a weak mind who resorted to cheating so now they will all pay the price. it doesn't matter if they knew or not.

stop being so short sighted about 1 team not playing in 1 tournament, think about the big picture and the future of the game.
2014-11-22 03:32:32
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
Things like the quote in my previous reply, and this next quote are totally ludicrous to say:

"they made a poor teammate choice with a weak mind who resorted to cheating"

Do you not consider they were probably also scammed by him? Or are you suggesting that with the current financial stance of CS:GO, Titan should have hired a professional social profiler?

We can also go ahead and assume KQLY was cheating earlier in the year with LDLC. Then by the same logic we should punish that organization and its players, they also played with him and possibly knew he cheated, and eventually it led to them qualifying to this event in a way (and winning money along the way).

Team does not act as 1 when an individual goes rogue and destroys the team, because there is nothing the team could have done about it. You cannot keep placing blame to everyone associated with KQLY.
2014-11-22 03:44:27
kqly had no part in ldlc qualifying for dhw.

about the prizemoney:
if the use of cheats can be confirmed for a tournament ldlc won with kqly, i think they should repay the money.

it would really be good if valve and esea would provide the exact numbers they have on the pros who made money.
2014-11-22 03:56:37
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
I didn't say they should be punished by getting disqualified, just punished by being labeled as cheat supporters. Not that they really should, but just in the context of all accusations flying here today.

Of course they should return the money if it gets proven, but the point is it hasn't been proven and you don't see anyone requesting it.

And for all we know KQLY maybe didn't cheat at Cologne, so if LDLC aren't returning money without proof, why are Titan returning the slot?

Maybe Valve know he did cheat in Cologne, so then they should be returning the slot, but unless they know the other players cheated too, then the other 4+ioRek should have been allowed to play the qualifier.
2014-11-22 04:02:38
but the qualifier is over and they didn't participate in open qualifiers either, so i guess they're out of luck.

valve will know, and at the moment all we can do is trust them to make the right decision. i'm not a fan of their information policy either, and the time for all this to surface is not optimal. but valve will have their reasons, and be they that they can't trust the organization or the other players to not have been involved in this.
2014-11-22 04:41:00
do you know the opposite is true, and they didn't know?

i fully agree with joebagz and stratmatt and i think titan should fucking man up and stop making these ridiculous statements. find a new player that doesn't hack and move on. they're making the drama here.

and i don't mean the remaining players. if they didn't know, i'm sorry for them.

Post edited 2014-11-22 03:42:51
2014-11-22 03:39:38
Well... that's not really a fair comparison.

When did the serial killer get the 'associate' an advantage over another person? That's what happened with Titan having an advantage over enemies in all the matches KQLY played for Titan with cheats.

And in the real world when a employee screws he gets fired, and the rest of the company carry on, true, but the client the employee screwed for wasn't satisfied with the company and won't come back to that company and thus the company has to suffer that loss.

I you play as a team, you lose as a team. Be this in a job, game or just life itself.

My opinion? If anyone should get a new qualifier, it's all the teams Titan beat with KQLY playing in qualifying for this tournament and team Titan with a replacement fifth. That way all the teams have a fair chance in qualifying.
2014-11-22 01:31:07
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
It doesn't matter if the serial killer gave the associate an advantage, the question is should the associate be punished for not realizing that he was associated with a serial killer?

Let's take a football analogy. Let's say Messi is found to have used unauthorized substances that helped him be faster, stronger. He gets caught tomorrow. Does Barcelona get kicked from the league? Do they get banned for next season? Even if they would, does Neymar get banned from playing with another team in the season or the next just because he was sharing a locker room with Messi?

That's what's effectively happening here, kennyS, apEX, Ex6TenZ and Maniac are getting a slap in the face for something KQLY did, while they as players deserve every chance to appear at a major.

Also, they didn't lose, it's more that they were cheated by KQLY just like everyone else, and now they're getting punished for it as well.
2014-11-22 01:47:23
do you think titan will pay their 10.000$ from DreamHack 2014 Stockholm back?
2014-11-22 03:46:20
"I am defending players who had NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CHEATS"

You don't know this to be true.

While I accept the notion of innocence until guilt has been proven, that's not been your defence here.

You're suggesting (in caps no less), that they had nothing to do with the cheating. You don't know this to be true.

Which indicates you almost certainly already possess an established opinion, which intrudes upon your earlier argument regarding fairness.

I'm not disputing whether it should be about fairness; (however open to interpretation that notion really is in reality...), simply that much of your defence of Titan comes down to belief that they are all innocent.

At this stage it would unfortunately appear noone really knows one way or the other :(
2014-11-22 00:41:06
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
Yes, I am using the common notion of innocent until guilt has been proven.

We can't associate guilt just like that, hence those players cannot be blamed in any way for something KQLY did. Therefore they have nothing to do with cheats as of now and as of what is knowable to us.

If for example apEX or kennyS end up being banned tonight, the same would apply to the remaining players for tomorrow.
2014-11-22 00:47:47
where Kukli was playing before Titan? he was hitting everything, played like a monster, team was winning but he got kicked out. Official statement was a la "he was ragging." Now that he was cought cheating maybe reason was something else?
look m8 we don't know how often french dude was cheating and it is now verry important to disq. he + his team so things like this wouldn't happen again.
+ i think orgs have to take messures and include draconic points in contract. for example like " If player is cought cheating than he would have to pay for all expenses that org made for prepearing for event + moral compensation + lifetime disq." VALVE AND ORGS have to make messures to fight against idiots who cheat!
2014-11-22 01:26:15
they should do that
2014-11-22 03:49:33
Why you keep ignoring Planet Key Dynamics?
2014-11-22 00:15:49
We cannot forget that little kids have access to the internet. So we can be trying to have an adult conversation with a child.
2014-11-22 00:13:34
Okay. We should cancel all tournaments until they fix this situation.
2014-11-22 00:09:58
I dont nesesarily disagree. but thats how buisness work, its not about compassion or just this "unit" of our team is perverted or corrupted. if I as a head of anything, get bullshit from my partners or subordinates, that company is fucked, until it all settles down and the water gets all clear again, aint noi time for dealing with bullshit. you know what i mean dont you?
2014-11-22 00:02:41
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
That's the bullshit right there, because people don't want to handle the facts and their heads are full of suspicions and they jump to conclusions in the heat of the moment, we should wait for things to settle down before coming to our senses and doing the fair thing?

Why would that be the norm? Why not deal with the problem right away based on the facts that exist on the case.
2014-11-22 00:06:50
the fact is that a titan player have been caugth using illegal software. and the ban comes just days prior to a major, and its just the rigth thing to do, to put this team on a quaratine for now. they will be welcomed back eventually, but rigth now I dont think its the rigth thing to invite a team who potentially unrigthfully got away with Dreamhack stockholm dont you think?
2014-11-22 00:19:02
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
But this is not a virus so that we need quarantine. There is no reason to believe the other players "got infected" and might be cheating too.

KQLY should and has been fired from the company, they will get bad reputation for it, and that's it.

Why shouldn't the other 4 + ioRek get a chance to qualify? Haven't they done enough in CS:GO so far in a legit way, even before teaming up with KQLY?
2014-11-22 00:25:08
I think theres is no other way to say that we disagree. the titan enterprise is fucked in my eyes for THIS event. offcourse the robotic and anal way to fix problems is to deal with the problem and nothing else, but in my opinion the consequence should spread to the team and the fucking organisation you represent, so as to disencourage future retard cheaters from this cancer that is cheating. its just my opinion my firend, im not stating this is the ultimate truth or way this should be handled. its just my opinion and what I think is common sense.
2014-11-22 00:31:59
Hypothetically speaking, if you were a fan of Titan and all this unfortunate information came to light, would you be more or less impressed by your team for taking the painful but (arguably?) more prinicipled stance, of accepting the DQ with dignity and resolving to preparing for the next major?

Genuinely curious to know what opinion you and others would have on this as much of this entire affair appears to comne down to personal interpretations of what is 'fair', 'necessary' and 'suitable'.

(Please note, I'm not talking about Volvo's lack of communication here. Indeed I'm not entirely sure why they wouldn't contact a pro team in advance of this type of announcement. I suppose to a company like Valve, they may still look at 'pro gaming teams' as relatively onconsequential organisations. In many instances that may well be the case.)
2014-11-22 00:47:17
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
I'm not affected by being a fan of anyone in such a way, so I can't really put myself in those shoes. I am the biggest fan of fairness, so if any team screws up, they should be punished.

I would be less inclined to stand for their players in the comments here if Titan hadn't complained as that would mean they care about it less, so automatically I would care less.

We can go on assuming they covered it up, or that they knew but wanted to avoid a scandal, or that one or more of the players were in on it with him, but I can't accept that people here are willing to lock all of the players away as if they know such information for sure. I know that being scared of that possibility is a human reflex, but so was hanging "witches" back in the day.
2014-11-22 01:08:40
That's fair enough - (pardon the pun)!

However, I wouldn't necessarily be inclined to think Titan's complaint was necessarily motivated by fairness.

As a commercial organisation it would at least to me be driven as much by financial concerns as any notion of fairness.

I'm also (hypotehtically) thinking of what Titan might have said if the player caught was from a much less recognisable organisation? Would there by unity?

For that matter what have other organisations had to say about it? I know Heaton isn't NiP in its entirety, however, he was quite blunt on national TV no less claiming that the problem was much larger than just these VAC bans...

All of that (and more) condition any response I might personally have as to Titan's position, as well as any notion of setting an example of professionalism for the future within pro CS; (although that of course might not be very fair in itself...)
2014-11-22 01:23:58
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
From what I saw many players have supported the notion that they should be allowed to try to qualify, so that shows some unity I guess.

Sure it's possible that Titan and their players are even more concerned financially, but there isn't much to be gained here at this point, they will not get invited all of a sudden.

I do like that they called out Valve for lack of communication, they are not the first ones to think that but are the first ones to officially state it, and that could eventually make a difference if others join in and it could lead to more transparency in cases like this.

Bottom line is they have now been painted as an organization that condoned cheating, even by Valve themselves due to having no public explanation. The players and organization have also lost the sticker money and the potential prize money, and they have wasted a lot of time and resources, which is all a steep price to pay if they truly are innocent.

And while some say that's deserved, I can't find a logical path to that. How can someone if they didn't know about the cheating deserve to have that much taken away, without even a chance to re-qualify?
2014-11-22 02:21:16
Not convinced by the unity tbh (see #82).

Also I am utterly unconvinced by the claim by KQLY that he only used the hack for one week.

The fact he knew pros were using it, but didnt then mention it to either Titan or Valve, is beyond all reasonable suggestion.

Why would you happily allow such a cheat to remain in use, denying your team their professional earnings, when you have evidence that it exists and works?

I think there's enough common sense argument to suggest he used the hack for a long time, including in official matches.

While it's bad for those that didn't cheat, this naturally calls into question the legitimacy of any qualifiers he played in.

It's unfair on those who didn't cheat, but I feel the decision was fair for both this incident as well as any broader impact across the sport.
2014-11-22 04:01:49
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
Check #119 actually, but also check twitter.

I am also not buying KQLY's story at all, nor Sf's for that matter, but I also firmly believe that if more people had known about it, it would be harder to keep a secret (and it's obviously not a cheat made 2 weeks ago).

I don't see how this helps the sport, it just over-punishes Titan's other players. Teams wouldn't have been afraid of using cheaters any less if kennyS & co were allowed to play the qualifier, it's like any other different team playing.

Not that teams using cheaters on purpose is really a common/expected thing in the first place. Organizations don't create cheaters.
2014-11-22 04:16:42
Link to twitter accounts (or just name pros)?

Would be interested to read a balanced cross section bearing in mind the comments also made by other pros and team managers suggesting the problem is widespread.

//also re the qualifier, not sure what message it would send to invite Titan.

I would accept it if the debate had been over attendance at a regular qualifier, but this was an emergency measure caused by their player's actions.

I would agree that these two teams have perhaps been saddled with the brunt of the entire affair - possibly even bearing the brunt of a growing undercurrent of dissatisfaction with the effectiveness of the VAC system as a whole, but it is my personal opinion that of the options availabel this move is more likely to benfit the sport as a whole in the future.

Arguably not the most satisfactory decision for legit players on either team, but for a follower of the scene as a whole, perhaps more so.

As I said before it really does seem to come down to interpretation.

Post edited 2014-11-22 04:30:36
2014-11-22 04:21:02
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
Where is this notion that teams are responsible for their players' crimes come from?

I don't see this in other sports, leagues or overseeing organizations are responsible to catch the players on enhancement drugs, not the teams. And the players get the punishment, not the teams.

You wouldn't hold the team responsible for KQLY robbing a bank, why is this so different only because his crime is in the game? The teammates and the organization are no more likely to have been involved in the bank robbery than in a personal cheating support group (they would have benefited financially from both).

I think any feeling of comfort you or anyone else get from Titan being punished is based on false expectations. As for the benefit to the sport, I think it's a placebo effect at best, and a costly mistake at worst.

I don't have a list of players, it was just popping up on my twitter feed over the last couple of days.
2014-11-22 05:35:01
That's a rather vacuous analogy; (although not as bad as the idiotic car crash one used elsewhere).

I also think most people - including you, are overlapping feelings of sympathy for other Titan players with recognition of the organisation. They're different things.

I can still feel sympathy for Titan players while firmly believing the team should recieve the DQ.

More so in fact after the statement by Titan. You yourself agree KQLY's excuse is bs, so the fact Titan have gone with it to protect the money they've already made shows they don't deserve the spot.

They're a commercial organisation so that's to be expected, but then so is a decision that hits them where it matters - which is what this was.

Too may people seem to be overlapping sympathy for affected players, with a decision made that might (hopefully) lead to greater professionalism across the board.

As for the 'placebo/costly', no clue what you're getting at so detail with examples would be appreciated.

I appreciate it's been hard on players who didn't cheat.

If I was a pro who played clean one of my first thoughts at this point would be the need for seperate regulation. It's the logical step for any new sport, e-sports included.
2014-11-22 17:24:04
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
The placebo/costly thing is referring to the result of this punishment which will at best be the community believing that this will prevent others from cheating in the future, which would be a placebo. Cheaters will cheat, and organizations like Titan don't reach out to cheaters to help them in the first place, so nothing will truly change. Valve will work harder on VAC regardless of Titan's punishment, tournaments and organizations would update the rules regardless too, as a pro player was banned. So the over-punishment has no real effect, only the placebo.

And if the community doesn't buy the placebo, then the only consequence that remains is the players missing out on the major.

Like I mentioned earlier to someone, what most people are doing here is getting blinded by the proximity of DH Winter, where as this has nothing to do with the actual event.

If the event was 2 months from now, they wouldn't be punished this way. And if they will ever be allowed to play again, then they might as well be allowed to play in this qualifier. So what I'm saying is this did not happen during DH Winter. It was an unrelated incident that happened to be close to DH Winter.

And I don't see how I am overlapping Titan's recognition here, not that I care much about it, but they are equally not to blame as the players. A bad apple happened to grow in their garden, what were they supposed to do about it if it looked fine at the start?

Their organization was hit with the disqualification from the tournament, which is the normal response. But then they were also hit with being disallowed to participate in the qualifier, which is overextending the punishment, and punishing someone for something another person did.

There is a general "teach them a lesson" vibe going around, which has nothing to do with fairness. Why do Titan need to be taught a lesson when as far as we know there was nothing they could have done to prevent this?
2014-11-22 17:39:20
You're assuming that this decision will in no way reduce the likelihood of others cheating in the future.

While there will undoubtedly still be cheats, you don't know that this DQ against the organisation hasn't/won't discourage pros from cheating in future.

There is in fact no way of knowing whether this move will have a positive or zero impact, so you're counter argument is as fallacious.

Re Titan, their official announcement echoed that of KQLY. Therefore their official position, to save face and money, was to lie. Therefore a punishment against the organisation would seem legitimate.

I'm aware the timeframe may suggest this was MORE legit post statement, which calls into question the initial Valve motivation. As I said, these teams may be carrying the burden of a collective sense of dissatisfaction with Volvo and their AC.

There is a difference between the players and the organisation.

Re The qualifier, if the decision was taken to punish Titan then it would seem to fall in line with what I've said. I also believe there is a sense of communicating beyond the immediate incident, which given the money that's now being invested and established ios understandable.

It's likely the same form of greed-driven decision making that led Titan to support the claim by KQLY that he, 'only cheated for a week'. They're being fucked by their own money-driven standards, so it's hard to feel sympathy for the organisation even when it's natural to feel sympathy for the players.
2014-11-22 17:57:28
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
My argument is based on a very reasonable assumption that cheaters will still not care about how their actions affect others (whether that's teammates, organization, or the entire csgo scene), otherwise they wouldn't be cheating in the first place.

So I think it's quite logical that this can only lead to a placebo effect.

You only seem to want to punish Titan because they didn't accept their punishment silently, as you consider they are defending their financial interests more than being affected people who care about this.

You cannot assume things like this:

"It's likely the same form of greed-driven decision making that led Titan to support the claim by KQLY that he, 'only cheated for a week'."

What else can they do? Say that he cheated the whole time, while there is no evidence of that? They are operating on the same info that you and I have (as Valve refused to communicate). And I also wouldn't make a public statement about my team saying "He probably cheated in all the LANs we attended" if I didn't know so, nor would I insinuate it as there are much bigger implications if that is true.

So you are judging them based on your personal reaction to their statement which you found to be "greed-driven", while it is just a normal reaction. The only other option was to stay silent, and what good would that do? This way they may at least spark Valve into communicating more in the future.

Also, they were punished before making their statement, so why is their statement affecting your opinion of the punishment?

Post edited 2014-11-22 18:12:04
2014-11-22 18:05:13
Re affecting my opinion of the punishment. Have you never made a partial decision on something, and then when later evidence arose decided based upon that to cement your belief? Of course you have, you're deflecting (or at best focusing on something that needn't be central).

Equally I'm sorry but much of what you try to present as fact is incorrect.

In their official statement they were under no obligation to even mention or reproduce the, 'he cheated for a week' part - none whatsoever. However, they elected to, which suggests it was to distance themselves from any associative responsibility as the parent organisation. So suggesting 'what else could they do' is not fact, but rather your interpretation of events.

Also there is absolutely no evidence to suggest their releasing that statement will in any way encourage Valve to communicate more in the future. Once again this is simply your interpetation of events.

It's the same with suggesting, 'My argument is based on a very reasonable assumption that cheaters will still not care about how their actions affect others (whether that's teammates, organization, or the entire csgo scene), otherwise they wouldn't be cheating in the first place'.

I don't find that at all reasonable, it's just your assumption. I'm also clearly not the only one who believes th DQ may well discourage other pros from cheating in future because of the penalty invoked.

In fact MY OPINION - (just as you're clearly expressing your own), is that while cheating wont end completely, on balance this may well discourage pros from cheating to the same level...

I believe that's perfectly reasonable based upon following these events and the impacts of this penalty.

Your opinions and the way you express them are of course completely understandable. You're passionate about the subject, but this also means you're not as detached as you might like to think.

You're making assumptions, which even if you think are reasonable, no one else need agree.

Therefore presenting them as factual foundations for arguing that at best this might create a community or sport-wide placebo effect, was rather misleading.

I think it's best we move on, or at least I intend to as it's clear this isn't factual but rather opinion based.

That' entirely fine, but then neither should it masquerade as something it is not.
2014-11-22 18:28:52
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
I have nowhere presented my opinion as fact, in fact I have began many of my sentences with "I think" so obviously all of this is my interpretation.

I'm telling you that I think that you are being affected by their statement, when in fact their punishment had nothing to do with that.

There is no fence to sit on from my point of view - because clearly and simply there is no evidence that Titan knew of any involvement so any punishment they are given is based on non-factual events.

Going from that to your conclusions about their greediness, your feet are not on the ground but instead you just want to see punished someone who you interpret is bad based on their statement after the events.

My opinion takes no such assumptions when it comes to the punishment, it is based solely on the fact that they are not proven to be guilty, hence shouldn't suffer for something KQLY did.

Their statement where they repeated what he said does in no way make me think they knew about it.

The assumption I make is about the purpose and effect of the punishment, which cannot even be discussed as fact as we have no official reasoning for it. So all we can do is assume - and I do assume that cheaters will never care about affecting others, because they already don't by the simple act of cheating.

And all I can add to that is that you are part of the placebo effect if you think that this will prevent future cheaters. It might as well really help, some placebos do but I think it's silly and more importantly it throws a team under the bus, so it's unfair.

Post edited 2014-11-22 18:50:25
2014-11-22 18:49:08
maybe I dont understand you are trying to say. im sorry if thats the case. my english isnt the stringest.
2014-11-22 00:20:50
*strongest omfg
2014-11-22 00:33:48
If you could use ure brain before writing shit maybe you would look after what kind of cheat you are talking about. It's the kind that people standing behind you can't notice. Or you think they were casually playing in the gaming house with KQLY having glowing red player models or what?

Post edited 2014-11-21 23:24:39
2014-11-21 23:23:59
KQLY has extra special powers.
2014-11-22 00:18:45
Ah ooh~

Your are going to cry if that happened.
2014-11-22 00:08:26

tgwri1s don know what is team.
2014-11-22 01:19:09
yes? they should? they recruited a fraud player, they should be more strict when getting theirt employes. offcourse titan deserve to get disqualified. thats what happen in the real world. you cant control your paws, you suffer.
2014-11-21 23:10:00
that's so dumb, watch thorin's rant to learn why
2014-11-21 23:14:44
+ fucking 1

THESE GUYS, as if it was so easy to spot.
Moreover, he probably used it at home in random pug matches...
2014-11-21 23:42:12
I already watched, its his opinion, and I have a different one, some things have consequences and your "name" cant bail you out from it, this is one of these cases. this team had a fucking cheater in it, yeah i believe the titan teammates didnt knew about his dark side, does it change the fact that the titan team had unfair advantage in GOd knows how many matches? no. its just a policy to ban the team as statement. thats how it should be done.. and its not like its for eternity but for this event
2014-11-21 23:57:05
Planet Key Dynamics.
2014-11-22 00:19:53
its fine that they lose their slot, but its ridiculous that they cant attend the qualifier (PKD and flipside could)
2014-11-22 01:22:15
The organization is however responsible for its players and should learn to think ahead and take necessary precautions in the future.
2014-11-21 23:10:48
+ fucking 1, thats how its works in real world
2014-11-22 00:23:07
offcourse there could be no way for any others of knowing it, but thats just bad luck I guess. Titan still rigthfully diqualified for this particular event imo. its just common sense.
2014-11-22 00:24:26
the team has to be banned from the tournament, there is no other way. also blaming valve is just plain stupid
2014-11-21 23:11:09
The rules are clear: VAC ban = disqualification. Everyone knows it. It makes no sense to complain about it now.
2014-11-21 23:14:14
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
What rules? Planetkey were allowed to play just as long as they don't bring cLy. They didn't suffer at all in the exact same situation.
2014-11-21 23:14:58
TLDR but still I don't think MIRAA made the last sentence out of nowhere.
2014-11-21 23:19:58
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
That has no correlation whatsoever. The equivalent of that would be Titan showing up at the qualifier with KQLY.
2014-11-21 23:22:03
Sorry dude, I misunderstood.
2014-11-21 23:23:37
+1 you're arguing with kids (chaps) :)
2014-11-21 23:21:58
One of the most important things to remember about the internet.
2014-11-22 00:21:18
Allow me to disagree.

A team wins together and a team loses together. This same principle has to be applied to a cheating incident.

Valve did what they had to do - catch the cheaters - and followed their own rules (3 players for direct invite and no teams with vac players allowed in a major).
2014-11-21 23:20:49
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
I never said they shouldn't have lost their spot. I have just been advocating the other 4 players should have a chance to play in the LAN qualifier, as they are not to blame for KQLY's actions.
2014-11-21 23:24:32
That player did represent Titan as an organisation, the organisation is responsible to only recruit honest people who respect the rules and if it fails at doing so, it will have to face consequences.
Beside that nobody can actually prove that the organisation didn't know about its member's misbehavior. If we wouldn't punish the clan, clans could just use 1-2 cheaters to succeed and if they get busted, the could continue with new players as if nothing happened.

Post edited 2014-11-21 23:24:13
2014-11-21 23:23:48
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
Nobody can also prove that they knew, so they cannot be considered guilty. KQLY is proven guilty, and he will never be allowed near a major again.

But why should the other 4 team members suffer when there is realistically nothing they could have done considering the sophistication of the cheat?

Also, I know you are a troll and I am just replying so others who may read your comment would not blindly agree with your backwards logic.
2014-11-21 23:29:17
YOU ARE THE ONE WITH BACKWARDS LOGIC. The trust of the community and legitimacy of the tournament are infinitely more important than boofuckinghoo titan. Give it a rest and stick up for the entire scene, not just a couple players who are too stupid to realize they have a cheater on their team.
2014-11-21 23:36:48
I'm a troll? You're a troll! Seriously, just because I disagree with you, you call me a troll...

Yes you're right, the opposite can't been proven either (meaning one can not prove that the clan "cheated" by allowing KQLY to use cheats), BUT the clan is guilty of violating their duty of only recruiting people who respect the competition's rules. This "law" is not written on any paper (in real sports and in the economy it actually is, and afaik during the CPL days the players and teams also had to sign an agreement, in which the clans had to guarantee for the honesty of their players), but this rule is absolutely necessary since the clan also profits from the criminal act of this one member (if he plays very good because of a cheat, it also helps his team).

Post edited 2014-11-21 23:46:24
2014-11-21 23:37:20
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
That is completely made up, there is nothing a team can do in a situation like this to prevent it.

First of all, CS:GO is far from big enough for organizations to have contracts and money that could actually justify a case in court against a player like this (which doesn't mean Titan won't try, I don't know, but it obviously isn't enough of an incentive for players not to cheat)

Secondly, how do you manage to disregard the details of this specific cheat that was detected, which obviously mean that there is no way anyone could have known unless KQLY told them (for which there is no evidence or indication)?

Thirdly, what rules had KQLY violated prior to joining Titan based on which you blame them for recruiting him?

All made up points, no realism in thinking, hence you are a troll to me, along with having seen your previous posts in the past days.
2014-11-21 23:47:02
"That is completely made up, there is nothing a team can do in a situation like this to prevent it."

Not true. Beside not recruiting anyone without checking is background before and questioning his character, the clan can also state strong consequences for cheating in the player's contract.

"Secondly, how do you manage to disregard the details of this specific cheat that was detected, which obviously mean that there is no way anyone could have known unless KQLY told them (for which there is no evidence or indication)?"

Uhm, I just said that it can't be proven that the clan knew about KQLY's cheating nor can it be proven that the clan didn't know. If one would actually prove that the clan knew about it, I would fucking demand MUCH stronger consequences for the clan (btw I believe that NiaK is saying the truth and they didn't know).

My post in the past days? What's wrong with them? Wow, you really can't handle other opinions than yours..

Post edited 2014-11-22 00:10:29
2014-11-22 00:08:13
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
You're talking about social profiling in the CS scene, you're not being realistic.

You're talking as if you know there is no consequences for cheating in Titan's contract.

Those are the things I have a problem with.

So you should stop blaming KQLY's teammates and organization for something they couldn't have stopped.
2014-11-22 00:18:36
"You're talking as if you know there is no consequences for cheating in Titan's contract."

Obviously not consequences that are strong enough...

Look, I understand your point and I agree that it's very unfortunate for the other players, BUT it was still the right thing to do. If you're not being strict here, you're opening the floodgates for teams that use cheaters (just 1-2 per team) to climb up the latter of success without having to fear any real consequences except for having to play a second qualifier in case they get caught.
2014-11-22 00:29:24
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
That's what I said before, CS:GO is not big enough for serious consequences that would act as a deterrent and that has nothing to do with Titan or the players.

It's not the right thing to do, those players have done nothing wrong, they don't deserve punishment.

About sending a message:

Why would seeing your team punished AFTER you are caught and your career is destroyed deter a morally challenged cheater in the first place? He just wouldn't care, it's no deterrent at all.

The other side of the fence about teams hiring cheaters to climb the ladder is just unrealistic, it's so far fetched because it would involve too many people in that whole fiasco.

So having Titan punished now will realistically have no bigger effect whatsoever that not punishing them would.

Teams were going to improve their contracts in order to take cheaters to court even after smn's ban, so this won't make a difference. And stricter and bigger punishment numbers on the contracts are the only thing that can help in the future, along with the whole "your career will be destroyed" thing.
2014-11-22 00:38:44
If you're facing a 20k fine, you will think if you should start cheating or not...

"those players have done nothing wrong"

You can't even prove that (in the same way you can't prove the opposite). There are rumors that apEX knew about it for quite some time...

Valve/DH HAD to punish the clan, because of said reason. I'm not going to repeat myself.

"Why would seeing your team punished AFTER you are caught and your career is destroyed deter a morally challenged cheater in the first place?"

This punishment isn't supposed to be a message for KQLY, it's simply a punishment for the organisation Titan who didn't attend its duty.

"The other side of the fence about teams hiring cheaters to climb the ladder is just unrealistic,"

WOW! At this point I really need to control myself to not call you names. You know NOTHING! This exact thing is what harmed the German CS scene more than anything else and ruined the career of many very talented young German players. During the last 7 years of CS 1.6 this method became very popular in Germany and people used it to climb through the EAS up to the EPS. They teamed up with 1-2 cheaters, beat the other EAS teams, qualified for the EPS and often instantly (since they now had to play on LAN) replaced the cheating players with other players. This became such a big thing, that even well-known German CS pros admitted that it became almost harder to reach the top of the cheat-infested EAS than to perform well in the EPS. The EAS became a minefield of teams with 1-2 cheaters in their lineup. This made even players who are actually honest persons, very talented and who later became internationally well known CS players (such as Tixo, gob, cyx,..) so desperate that they played with cheaters. One of the things the ESL did to prevent this was to introduce a new rule that said if a players gets caught cheating, his entire clan will be banned from the actual season (and in worse case even completely), regardless of what the other players knew or not (there was btw also a rule that said if one can prove that you knew about a cheater but you did nothing against it, you will face the same consequences).

"So having Titan punished now will realistically have no bigger effect whatsoever that not punishing them would. "

No, it would allow other teams to do what I just explained and in case it goes wrong call for the same rights Titan got, meaning the right to re-qualify.

Post edited 2014-11-22 01:09:25
2014-11-22 01:02:42
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
"You can't even prove that (in the same way you can't prove the opposite). There are rumors that apEX knew about it for quite some time..."

Why do you people keep coming to me with this backwards logic? Why would I need to prove that someone is innocent. It is normal to assume someone is innocent if there is no proof or indication of guilt (rumors that apEX knew could be less or more credible, but I haven't heard any credible ones so far and if anyone else has, it hasn't gotten substantiated in any way so it doesn't really factor in)

About the EPS story, let's assume it is all true, it is again no deterrent against cheating. Has the cheating decreased in EPS? smn & cLy just happened, which is far worse the the cuddy case for example.

Even when such punishment exists, it only means the cheater will not end up in team A because they are afraid of getting caught, but will instead play for team B who are not afraid, it's not like the cheater will not exist.

Punishing Titan and Epsilon here today will not magically stop teams C, D, E and so on tomorrow from getting a cheater to help them up if they wanted to.

Punishing cheaters and those who condone cheating is the only way to go, not creating collateral damage just to send a message.
2014-11-22 01:33:20
"Why would I need to prove that someone is innocent."

You don't. But most of all: You can't. That's exactly the reason for this weird "rule" that punishes the whole clan, seems unfair, but is needed.

The rumor about apEX was all over the French CS websites...just let me ask you: What if it's actually true? Would you still lean against a penalty for the entire clan?

"Has the cheating decreased in EPS?"

Honestly I don't know it. I gave up on the German CS community two years ago...not following it closely anymore.
The cLy and smn case only seems worse to you because it concerned international CS, unlike the many many cheat scandals in the German 1.6 EPS (including top players) that did only affect the national competition (the whole scene became much more international, nowadays is much easier to attend international events with your team, back then you had to become #1 or at least top3 in Germany first, and then you got invited to international events, winning the EPS was the most important thing back then, today many teams don't give a fuck about the EPS anymore, they focus solely on getting into international events). Back then this cLy and smn cheat affairs would have been some classic EPS cheat incidents, it would have been a national cheat scandal, but barely anyone outside of Germany would have noticed it. Sorry went a bit off-topic..

"Even when such punishment exists, i...."

This became indeed a problem. "Became" because:
Professional clans, whose ambitions are to compete on international top level, whose players are under contract and who are dependent from their sponsors are very unlikely to ruin their image (and with that the entire organisation) by willingly recruit a cheater. Back then, only these clans were able to compete on international events (due to the fact that only they were able to pay for all the travelling and stuff). Thus the cheater scum was doomed to stay in national competitions. Nowadays it's possible for everyone to create an "amateur organisation" (no contracts and therefor no consequences in case of cheating) and compete in qualifiers of international events (something like that simply didn't exist back then). This makes what you said a real threat...but at least we should remain the trust in the established professional clans by not allowing them to work with cheaters without having to fear consequences (and thus punish them if they do even if it seems unfair).

Post edited 2014-11-22 02:25:16
2014-11-22 02:20:16
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
Well what I'm saying is, we shouldn't be punishing people who are not guilty. It's far more likely that a person acted on their own than that the organization condoned or even brought him on for it. And I told you already there will be no realistic effect of punishing Titan here, those things will happen if cheaters provide the option, it doesn't depend on organizational punishment.

And cheaters will certainly be no less inclined to cheat out of fear of their teammates' or organizations.

cLy is an EPS champion, having won his title AFTER the VAC ban. smn just made it through the group stage and secured ALTERNATE a place at the next Finals. I'm saying nothing has changed with that rule about organizations being punished. What's worse, ESL don't even consider VAC bans legitimate and still allowed cLy to play last season, and I don't know yet but I can only assume that they will allow ALTERNATE to keep their spot at the finals since smn wasn't ESL-banned.

Moreover, Planetkey didn't kick cLy as soon as he got the ban, they kept him on for 3 extra months until it was revealed he can't play at DH Winter.

So basically, the only actual deterrent here will be improving the anti-cheats and taking a stand against caught cheaters and forcing them out of the scene once and for all.


About apEX, I already said this in another comment, but even if it turned out that he also cheated not only knew, nothing would change concerning the other 3 players. Why should they be punished if apEX and KQLY were cheating together?

If it turns out that they all knew or cheated, then by all means ban them from the scene forever. But if they are innocent, they are getting over-punished already.

Post edited 2014-11-22 02:54:36
2014-11-22 02:47:03
Again: The clan might be innocent in terms of not having deliberately used a cheater (but nobody can actually prove that), but they are guilty of bringing a cheater into the competition. Another comparison: If I buy a Swiss watch during my holidays in Thailand and on my way home the custom officer at the airport finds out that the watch is a replica, I will get a fine and the watch will get destroyed. Regardless of the fact that the guy who sold me the watch told me that it's a real one and not a fake. The custom officer doesn't know whether I bought a replica on purpose or if I got scammed, fact is I brought a replica with me into the country and that's a crime. Titan brought a cheater into the competition and that's a crime.

"those things will happen if cheaters provide the option"

...and if we don't punish clans who accept cheaters in their team, there will be more of these options.

I agree that the thing with cLy and smn is a shame.

"..I'm saying nothing has changed with that rule about organizations being punished"

Honestly I don't know if these rules also exist in the GO EPS. A lot of things seem to have changed...
But like I said: I'm not following that scene anymore, so I can't really say anything about the current situation and the rule-set (wouldn't surprise me if there's a loop hole than only covers ESL bans and not VAC bans).

Post edited 2014-11-22 03:16:57
2014-11-22 03:06:35
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
This would be the equivalent of you going out of Switzerland for the first time and not knowing that Thailand is filled with fake watches, and thinking you somehow got a good deal. Do you really truly deserve to be punished?

Obviously that law is there to send a message, but I'm saying we don't need to send a message. What's next, forbid convicted criminals from having children cause many of them produce future criminals?

No one except the cheaters knew that a cheat like this was possible, that a guy can cheat and you can't see it on his screen. That someone could start up the cheat on your account and you would think you are on a good day and have no idea you are in fact cheating. You just cannot blame Titan for it unless you have proof they knew he was cheating.
2014-11-22 03:32:07
"This would be the equivalent of you going out of Switzerland for the first time and not knowing that Thailand is filled with fake watches, and thinking you somehow got a good deal. Do you really truly deserve to be punished?"

Although it "feels" wrong:
An in reality I would get punished. I'm responsible for what I bring with me and rules are rules. In German there's a very famous saying "Unwissenheit schützt nicht vor Strafe", the English equivalent apparently is "Ignorance is no excuse" (though the exact translation actually is "ignorance does not protect your from the punishment").

"Obviously that law is there to send a message"

Not really...that law exists because (exactly like in our case) there's simply no way to find out if someone bought the fake watch although he knew that it's a fake watch or if he got scammed and thought it's a real one. This law is necessary because if we use the "not guilty until proven guilty" principle here, everyone could just claim that he didn't know that the watch he brought with him is fake (or in our case: that his team-mate was cheating).

"What's next, forbid convicted criminals from having children cause many of them produce future criminals?"

What kind of weird comparison is that...

"No one except the cheaters knew that a cheat like this was possible"

Again. WE DONT KNOW. You're just assuming that it was this way.

Post edited 2014-11-22 04:00:43
2014-11-22 03:57:32
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
What you're saying is that everyone who has ever played with KQLY in a team maybe knew he is a cheater, and since we can't know, instead of reasonably assuming their innocence, we will hold them all responsible like Titan are being held now?

Then we should also punish gob b because of smn, let's also punish all of Sf's teammates and organizations (LDLC, Mystik, Epsilon), let's punish all of emilio's teammates ever.

You cannot go punishing people for things they probably couldn't have known. Sure, maybe f.e. stavros knew all along that cLy is a cheater, but the other 50+ players connected to these VAC banned guys maybe didn't. So let's punish 51 because of 1?

Also, my "weird comparison" was missing a link, that was about your watch analogy whose point I presume is that people shouldn't be able to bring those watches in to sell them in Switzerland as real and make a huge profit. Which is basically preventing a crime before it happens by instituting an nonsense punishment. So let's just prevent crime at the start by forbidding reproduction of criminals?

This logic cannot fly with me, stop trying to assume the worst about things we don't know or can't know. If society goes there, we will become one huge prison.

According to the info that was revealed about the cheat by smn and others familiar with it, this cheat was practically undetectable on LAN, so yea we do know. Even if someone suspected it, no one was ever able to prove it until ESEA did a few days ago, followed by Valve who built up on that. So how could have KQLY's teammates found out about him cheating if he didn't want them to?

Post edited 2014-11-22 05:21:39
2014-11-22 05:20:01
"...and since we can't know, instead of reasonably assuming their innocence, we will hold them all responsible like Titan are being held now?"

Nope. I already explained this above. But it seems you still didn't get it...
The other players weren't declared guilty of having known about KQLY's cheating, the clan Titan as such was punished for violating the tournament's rules (no VAC banned players). If one would actually prove, that the other players have known about the cheating, they would/should have to face MUCH STRONGER consequences.

"Then we should also punish gob b..."

gob's team Alternate faced the same consequences as Titan does now, they were disqualified from the event. Yes it had little effect, since they already dropped out of the qualifier at that point, but now they actually lost the right to participate in this second qualifier, exactly like Titan (and Alternate was actually a legit candidate since they were next in line after myXMG).

Sf's team faced the same consequences as well: Disqualification from the event.

"Which is basically preventing a crime before it happens.."

The thing is: Not only the sale of such fakes is a crime, but also the import of them. You're punished for the later (the consequence of selling them is actually much higher).

The law that forbids you to import an illegal replica is btw. not just because you could sell and scam people with it, it's because you will most likely never buy the original one, thus the true developer/manufacturer lost income he deserves, it's about protecting patent rights (of course they can't undo your purchase, but the consequences one has to face will make people think twice before buying replicas).

I never accused KQLY's mates of knowing it..

Post edited 2014-11-22 06:08:13
2014-11-22 05:57:39
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
Well since you want to get technical, if "clan Titan" had to be punished, why couldn't the 4 players come to the qualifier as clan Eric Cartman?

There are no big contracts here between organizations and the event, there would be no reason why these 4 players shouldn't be invited to the qualifier based on previous merit, only under a different clan. But we know that wasn't presented to them as a possibility. Therefore, it means they are getting associated to KQLY's guilt.

Also, the tournament rule you are citing is referring to cases like Planetkey - you cannot show up with a VAC banned player (as they wanted to, and even played 2 pre-qualifiers with him). Titan's player was suddenly banned, they had no decision process there that would break tournament rules.

But even so, all the technicalities about organization Titan hold no water, the punishment for having a cheater is completely arbitrary from case to case in eSports, and due to the short time-frame here, in my opinion the players were un-rightfully discriminated against.
2014-11-22 06:15:07
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
Anyway, this has gone too far from your "Titan should have been careful who they are recruiting" to the whole Swiss watches thing and the technicalities now. There is nothing in this whole argument actually holding something against what I've been saying the whole time, and that is that the players are being punished by association without proof.

I still think you're a troll because of the way you express yourself in #352, which is the type of posts I've noticed in the past days and why I called you out on it. It was moderately fun debating anyway, but I will be heading to sleep now since someone has to cover this qualifier today :)
2014-11-22 06:32:00

Post edited 2014-11-22 13:17:43
2014-11-22 13:16:00
"Well since you want to get technical, if "clan Titan" had to be punished, why couldn't the 4 players come to the qualifier as clan Eric Cartman"

They were a part of Titan and therefor disqualified. Easy as that.

"there would be no reason why these 4 players shouldn't be invited to the qualifier.."

Except for the fact that they were in a team that got disqualified for not respecting the tournament's rules.
That's the price you got to pay if you play with a cheater.

"and even played 2 pre-qualifiers with him"

That was before the "no VAC banned players allowed" rule was introduced. And you know that.

"the punishment for having a cheater is completely arbitrary "

No it's not. It has since ever been "having a cheater in the team and therefor hurting the tournament/league's rules -> disqualification".

"There is nothing in this whole argument actually holding something against what I've been saying the whole time"

Yeah just keep telling that to yourself...

Anyways, let's just agree to not agree :)

Post edited 2014-11-22 13:29:34
2014-11-22 13:27:34
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
"No it's not. It has since ever been "having a cheater in the team and therefor hurting the tournament/league's rules -> disqualification""

Yea it is actually. Planetkey won one of the slots in DH Winter 2014 pre-qual #2 with cLy playing, and were allowed to take part in the main qualifier with a stand-in.

The rule for that wasn't introduced only then, that rule existed since the first Valve tournament, but was only publicized after the cLy incident before Cologne. It wasn't enforced for DHW due to errors in organization. Yes, I do know that.

Like I said, you can try to get technical, but that won't make you right.

I asked you what if they disassociate from the organization, why are they not allowed to play the qualifier then and now you're saying that the players are disqualified due to being a part of Titan, meaning they are guilty for associating with the organization that associated with KQLY.

That just can't fly, you don't get to punish people for something someone else did. Even with real world crimes, accomplices have to be proven not just assumed.

"That's the price you got to pay if you play with a cheater."

Paying a price for playing with someone who turns out to be a bad apple is not fair or right. It is scapegoating.

There's just no logical path here to punish the players themselves UNLESS they are proven to have known about the whole charade. And since we concluded that is not the case as of now, they should have been unpunished.
2014-11-22 14:16:59
"meaning they are guilty for associating with the organization that associated with KQLY."

Yes they are. They are a part of Titan, they did represent Titan and were therefor also subject of Titan's punishment.

If an investment banker gets caught manipulating stock ratings (for his personal gain but most likely also his bank's advantage), not only he will face consequences but also the bank he's working for (regardless of its exact role in the crime, its role only determines the dimension of the punishment). If that penalty for example means that this particular bank will not get access to certain markets anymore, this will also hurt the other employees, but that's how it is.

"Even with real world crimes, accomplices have to be proven not just assumed."

And Titan's "crime" has been proven: Having a cheater in their rows.

Nobody said they were guilty of willingly using a cheating player. It's exactly like in my Swiss watch example...

"Paying a price for playing with someone who turns out to be a bad apple is not fair or right."

Not facing the consequence of disqualification for bringing a cheater into the tournament is not fair or right.

"And since we concluded that is not the case as of now"

No, you shouldn't conclude ANYTHING, because you simply don't know.

Post edited 2014-11-22 14:47:08
2014-11-22 14:43:56
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
No that is not accurate. The bank wouldn't be punished if there was no proof against them. Like I said an employee going rogue is not the organization's fault, and while that is sometimes misused by banks who create scapegoats and get away with bad things, proof is always needed of the bank's involvement.

"Not facing the consequence of disqualification for bringing a cheater into the tournament is not fair or right."

The price is losing the original slot which they gained with KQLY and having to re-qualify.

"No, you shouldn't conclude ANYTHING, because you simply don't know."

But I do know that it HASN'T been proven that they knew as of this moment in time. It may get proven in the future, but since it isn't yet they cannot be blamed or punished for it. You cannot just blame and punish them just in case they might be guilty.

You're avoiding half of my points (like inconsistency in enforcing this rule with Planetkey and the fact that there is 0 proof of actual accomplices among the other players) and bringing up technicalities which do not realistically improve your point.
2014-11-22 15:00:00
Not going to argue with you about the banking example..you obviously got no experience in this field...

"The price is losing the original slot"

The consequence of having a cheater in the team has always been disqualification. And like I explained: for good reasons (avoiding the intentionally use of cheaters). "Disqualification" means you're fucking banned from the event.

"since it isn't yet they cannot be blamed or punished for it."

And they weren't. They were "only" blamed and punished for having brought a cheater into the competition.

I didn't avoid your other point. I just didn't feel like there's anything to argue about. Valve failed to enforce their rules correctly from the beginning, it's a shame. However that doesn't mean everyone has now the right to disrespect the rules.

"the fact that there is 0 proof of actual accomplices among the other players"

I never questioned this. I even wrote that myself like 4 times already. The point you seem to fail to understand is that they were never accused or punished for this.

Post edited 2014-11-22 15:17:30
2014-11-22 15:15:23
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
Let's get something straight, you don't know if they have been punished for the reasons you are assuming or not.

The consequence of KQLY's VAC ban has been their disqualification, and then DH/Valve didn't invite them to the qualifier. Whether they did that because of what you're saying, or because of what others are saying (that Valve are trying to send a message), or because they just haven't given this enough thought (they decided within hours) is up in the air.

What I am saying is that the consequence of the other 4 players "suffering" for KQLY's crime, regardless of the reasoning, is unfair and unjustified. If there is such a rule, it shouldn't exist. If it was to send a message, it was unfair. If it was due to not giving it enough thought, it is a flat out mistake.

The inconsistency in enforcing the rules so far suggests that the rules are far from established and clear. The timeframe of the decision together with the information Titan put out about lack of communication, suggests that this case wasn't given enough attention.

So don't tell me that you know this is how it should be, and that it is deserved.


"They were "only" blamed and punished for having brought a cheater into the competition."

They didn't bring a cheater to the competition. A cheater was caught in an unrelated circumstance, not at the event, and he happens to be a member of their team.

The event hadn't started, the qualifier hadn't started. The short timeframe just blinds everyone to the fact that this actually has nothing to do with DreamHack Winter except for the fact that they should lose their slot due to the 3/5 rule. And if they were still fulfilling the 3/5 rule (imagine a NiP player gets banned), then they shouldn't even lose the slot.

Everything you have been saying is assuming that this happened during DH Winter, but it did not. So if they will be allowed to play ever in the future, they should have been allowed to play in the qualifier or at DHW (had they still fulfilled the 3/5 rule that granted them the slot), which is simply much nearer future.
2014-11-22 15:44:26
"..and then DH/Valve didn't invite them to the qualifier"

Are you actually for real? Do you understand what "disqualified" means? It means you have no fucking place in the tournament anymore, you're BANNED and that ban won't just expire or disappear at some point. Why the fuck should a disqualified team have the right to get an invite to a qualifier from a tournament they just had been disqualified from? Disqualification is not equal to "dropping out of the tournament", it's a BAN.

"What I am saying.."

Look, we're turning in circles. I've explained you plenty times why it is perfectly justified and why that rule is absolutely needed. I'm pretty sure you're smart enough to understand it, but obviously not willed.

This happened while they were being official participants of the tournament and thus the violation of the rule "no VAC banned players" lead to their disqualification.

"They didn't bring a cheater to the competition."

They did. If they had kicked KQLY before he got busted, they probably would have been fine, but his release came after he got busted and thus one of their participants was a VAC banned player.

"The event hadn't started, the qualifier hadn't started."

But they were already official participants. Let's say you're an official participant of the qualifier and before your first match starts one of you opponents realizes that one of your player is VAC banned, and he reports him. Guess what? Even though the first match hasn't even started, you're going to get disqualified, because you did disrespect the participation rules.

We're running out of space here and let's be honest, we will never agree. It's a waste of time for both of us, thus I will stop here. Have a nice day.

Post edited 2014-11-22 16:23:25
2014-11-22 16:20:08
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
Well that's just flat out wrong, you're grasping at straws now with "they are official participants". That has nothing to do with rules now, you're making it up.

The only reason they are getting punished here is the timing. If DH Winter was 2 months away, they could still have been official participants and they would have been allowed to replace him (if they actually still had 3/5, otherwise they would have been allowed to try to qualify), just like they will be allowed to qualify for the next major.

Bottom line, for the 100th time - Titan and their players did nothing wrong here (at least nothing was proven until now), and they don't deserve to be punished for something KQLY did in a context unrelated to the actual event.

I will never agree with you because you are wrong on every moral and ethical aspect, the technicalities do not overturn that.
2014-11-22 16:35:12
2014-11-22 04:53:11
i suppose the law that sends murderers to prison for up to 300 years in the united states simply aren't strong enough, because murders still happen. logic.
2014-11-22 00:49:43
It's true that at some point, stronger consequences won't lead to a stronger effect in the prevention of crimes. The preventing effect of deterrence is limited. For example multiple studies have proven that the death-penalty doesn't have a stronger deterrence effect than a 30 year in jail sentence. But it makes a difference if a fine for wrongfully parking is 5 dollars or 120 dollars.

I'm pretty sure the consequences stated in KQLY's contract (if there are even such consequences...wouldn't surprise me if they weren't) are ridiculously low. Especially considering how much money one can win nowadays in CS. If KQLY actually cheated from the very beginning (and if he otherwise wouldn't have achieved anything) he made actually quite a lot of money thanks to this cheat. Totally worth it.

Post edited 2014-11-22 01:30:01
2014-11-22 01:28:51
hahaha fuck you crack me up lurppis <3 !!!!
2014-11-22 04:53:40
Their fucking team has played with a cheater on international lans, questioning the whole competitive integrity of this game. I thought you should try to make cheating not appealing for people? Maybe in the future just get 5 different private hacks to your team, when somebody gets caught you just blame him then? All of kqlys teammates have benefited from him cheating MONETARILY, and now you view them as victims. Titan as an organization has benefited from kqly cheating, now we should just roll as usual just without kqly?

Post edited 2014-11-21 23:46:17
2014-11-21 23:44:13
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
Are they not making it unappealing by effectively having killed any hint of career KQLY had? He's done, and so will be any other cheater that is caught.

But why would those around him, unaware of his actions, have to suffer to? Just so "the mob" would be happy that heads are rolling?

Also, at the moment it is entirely inconclusive whether they have benefited monetarily or not, as in whether he cheated on LAN or is now telling the truth (personally I would be inclined to think he is lying about only the 7 day trial, but we have no idea).

But let's stop jumping to conclusions?
2014-11-22 00:12:15
No they are not. They caught one private hack of how many? KQLY already has won ~20k tournament winnigs + salary. He gets to keep that money. He has still won ESWC, even if that title is now tarnished.

They should suffer because the whole credibility of competitive cs is at stake here. You have to make the whole idea of cheating as unappealing as possible. Big part of why cheating is so prevalent in mm and other places is the attitudes towards it. People were calling for re-instituting robiin in majors and now some people are calling for 1 year ban for KQLY for fucks sake. In my opinion you go overboard with the sanctions just to set an example.

Let ex6tenz & others come to next major, maybe next time they choose their teammates more carefully. Everything they achieved with him is tarnished. This tried once with my main account is such horseshit that it makes me cry that some people believe it.
2014-11-22 00:34:59
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
"In my opinion you go overboard with the sanctions just to set an example."

And this is where the argument stops with me. I just can't stand for things like that. Punishing innocent people in order to send a message? No thank you.

Figure out a fair way to send the message instead.
2014-11-22 00:41:05
innocent :D

Post edited 2014-11-22 00:41:42
2014-11-22 00:41:36
I understand your raging emotions about inequality but..
This is maybe DHW way of saying: don't cheat or you're gonna involve a lot of people including losing lots of money along the way.

Titan isn't banned forever in the tournament they can join on the next major. If the other remaining members could qualify so easily then Teams who has a cheater in their midst will just 'always' deny the fact that they know the player/s is/are cheating in order to 'try' to qualify for this tournament again. (which is really possible)
2014-11-22 02:53:02
Tgwri1s - HLTV.org
Come on now, let's be realistic, will saying "don't cheat or you're gonna involve a lot of people losing lots of money" ever gonna stop a morally unequipped person who is already set on cheating his way to the top?

And teams who knowingly have a cheater in their midst will not be deterred by Titan's case, they will also sit out and "join on the next major".

So this is not helping the scene in any way, it's just denying us the chance to see some of the legit best players in the world, like kennyS, at the biggest tournament - because of something their teammates did.
2014-11-22 02:58:55
hmm good point. how would a person cheating have a conscience in involving people.

unfortunately yes. titan can just sit this one out because this is how DH's handling their situation of things. :/

I agree, this is not helping the scene. The whole hacking thing is, not only KennyS not being able to play this tourney. It's a huge big fire that DH is extinguishing. They don't have control on that fire. I think their lack of trust made them make the decision. Like a panic choice

I'm just saying possible scenarios of reason behind DH's action but only DH can only answer to those arguments you've been pointing out. I know we deserve some answers, but we've been asking questions on the people who doesn't provide clear answers.

Post edited 2014-11-22 04:10:18
2014-11-22 03:57:50
"Their fucking team has played with a cheater on international lans"

Still no proof of that.
2014-11-22 01:49:49
That's incredibly stupid of you.
2014-11-21 23:04:41
2014-11-21 23:02:35
At lest, we have teams
2014-11-21 23:08:13
ahahahaha n1
2014-11-21 23:15:37
bad volvo, go stand in a corner!
2014-11-21 23:02:41
CS:GO scene turning into drama
2014-11-21 23:02:44
n1 :D
2014-11-21 23:02:45
bye bitch
2014-11-21 23:03:10
It is indeed weird why they punish the rest of Titan for this behaviour.
2014-11-21 23:03:28
probably because its impossible to prove whether they were aware of kqly using cheats?
2014-11-21 23:09:10
So they are innocent?
2014-11-21 23:46:27
read what i said again pls.
2014-11-22 00:20:12
i agree with the teams issues. why would the entire team be disqualified?
2014-11-21 23:03:35
because they qualified as a team. simple as that.
2014-11-21 23:11:49
h4h4h4 rekt
2014-11-21 23:03:54
End of August, it put me in contact with a program supex0 (he had solid arguments and explained to me that many players pros used its program).

Valve dont wanna ban others players, cuz DHW could got fucked?
2014-11-21 23:04:00
2014-11-21 23:07:57
I'm not sure about this but, 2 french players out, not a BIG drama in the scene. Fanboys will still pay for stickers/skins. What if VP/Fnatic players are out before DHW ? Think about the money they could potentially loose on this one ...They won't even try to ban any other player in a Top team before the event
2014-11-21 23:09:48
Or they want to make a real show. Banning pro players during event :D
2014-11-21 23:10:31
+1 :D
and use this oportunity to sell 'special ban dh stickers'.
2014-11-22 00:09:55
probably. they just banned two and dq their respective teams in hope of the other players not using cheats on DHW. But i hope they will ban them afterwards anyways. Guess NiP will win that major now. Seems like they werent "bad", they just were the only ones legit :D
2014-11-21 23:10:57
End of August, it put me in contact with a program supex0 (he had solid arguments and explained to me that many players pros used its program). - KQLY

gg csgo
2014-11-21 23:04:09
No surprise, Valve is incapable of communicating because they're idiots.

Sad that KQLY would ruin the efforts of kennyS, Ex6TenZ, and Maniac.
2014-11-21 23:04:12
2014-11-21 23:04:18
like we know if apex and the rest didnt know it and benefit from the situation. valve's correct
2014-11-21 23:04:18
Yeah... we don't know. there is no way to know. let's presume they are guilty. IDIOT.
2014-11-21 23:19:27
Its not that unlikely, though.
2014-11-21 23:49:17
you are naive. :)
2014-11-22 15:29:42
deserved nice guy (+1), done shit (-1)

1+(-1) = 1+1= 2

2 = 2 balls

2 balls

I'm done he deserves it
2014-11-21 23:04:33
1+(-1) = 1+1 = 2? Sure ftg pls
2014-11-21 23:12:55
my god...your maths teacher must be proud...
2014-11-21 23:38:31
"admitted to using the software for a 7-day period in August "outside of a competitive context and on another Steam account"."

coolstory ;D
2014-11-21 23:04:37
Well said Titan. Shame on volvo
2014-11-21 23:04:47
It's called "Group responsibility"(?).
One guy failed, whole team gets slap in da face.

Post edited 2014-11-21 23:06:01
2014-11-21 23:05:03
getting boring without lots of bans. volvo pls
2014-11-21 23:05:31
2014-11-21 23:07:11
2014-11-21 23:05:53
all I want to know, is how long they actually cheated, not this "test on mm" bullshit

Post edited 2014-11-21 23:06:07
2014-11-21 23:05:55
"outside of a competitive context and on another Steam account" .... BULLSHIT
2014-11-21 23:05:57
Valve are bunch of faggots, really.
Titan orga wanted to be sure it's not a mistake, but Valve simply didn't answer them at all.

Dear Gayb Newell! Your servers are shitty, your anti-cheat allowed to play with cheats for more than a year, our ping and loss % are increasing randomly when playing competitive MM, the only thing you care about is making f*cking money! You fatf*ck, fix your MM servers already!
2014-11-21 23:06:08
fuck kqly selfish cunt, feel sorry for the rest of titan
2014-11-21 23:06:11
My guess is a lot of people in this thread haven't read the statement.
2014-11-21 23:06:24
Haha get rekt!
2014-11-21 23:06:41
Titanorg should take legal actions against KQLY just like Epsilon will do against Sf
2014-11-21 23:06:47
Valve made the right choice. They can't let a team that has potentially had a cheater for them during months. They won Dreamhack Stockholm, what if KQLY cheated there? Nah, the team needs to also be punished.
2014-11-21 23:06:48
but they let planet key without cly...........
2014-11-21 23:21:58
bond and beauty
2014-11-21 23:07:13
poor titan,

learn from it

2014-11-21 23:07:17
Titan's reaction is understandable for me.
they will lose a lot of money because they are not a part of the stickers anymore.
2014-11-21 23:07:48
lol :) as if no one on Titan knew KQLY was dirty. sure I believe that.
2014-11-21 23:07:59
do you realise the only way to see this aimbot is to carefully spectate a players pov while playing, and knowing the full recoil pattern of every gun and how it acts when using it in diffrent situations ? its a small 10 % aimboost, you would not notice it if u were using it yourself without knowing.
2014-11-21 23:13:35
wow, so much bullshit.. "for a week" "on another steamacc".. I can't even read the article
2014-11-21 23:08:19
well said
2014-11-21 23:08:19
best drama since

NaVi -markeloff - edie
Astana Dragons

etc :DD
2014-11-21 23:09:39
deserverd for the org.

how can they not make strict contracts?!
2014-11-21 23:09:59
they should be in the qualifier
2014-11-21 23:10:20
2014-11-21 23:10:43
While I feel verry sorry for the rest of the titan players and the team behind them, I believe DH and Valve made the correct decision. It must be hard consequences for using players that cheat. It needs to be the managers responsibility to control and make sure that the players do not cheat.
2014-11-21 23:10:46
God damn Valve/DH. How to make an already grave situation even worse 101.
2014-11-21 23:10:50
i have alot of mixed feelings about everything right now. smn leaking so many names, and then only KQLY and SF get banned the day before ? everyone was almost certain that kioshima was going to go, and somewhere down the line someone knows something. Eigther valve is afraid of ruining csgo, and only did this as an example so they would get a "clean" dreamhack, or they have just gotten lucky with 2 people using a unique cheat. Maybe they have no clue what cheat the others have been using at all. Titan should not be to blame for the actions of KQLY, and i really feel sorry for them. There is no information, no evidence, no nothing. This just smells really bad all over.
2014-11-21 23:11:05
ITT: retards reading only title
2014-11-21 23:11:15
As much as the rest of the team will be missed, its only fair they lose the spot. I am never going to trust what someone who cheats says and its funny how they all only cheated in MM and matches of no importance......

He could have cheated in some of the games that gave titan (ldlc) a secure spot this year.
2014-11-21 23:12:22
This. They should just take it on the head and come back strong next tournament. No point whining about it.
2014-11-21 23:17:41
It's fair that they lose the spot, but it's not fair that they're not invited to the latest qualifier. They're by far the best team not in the tournament and PKD was allowed to play without cLy. The only reason they can't qualify is that KQLY got banned a week before DH, while cLy got banned months ago.
2014-11-21 23:18:05
Yeah agree! Guess valve wants to send a signal, but still not the right way to go about it!
2014-11-21 23:22:23
valve is throwing cash at pro teams by giving them sticker profits. if they want to bite the hand that feeds them, then let them eat shit.

it's a good message and it's definitely needed, don't be a softie!
2014-11-22 01:15:13
fetish why do you never say hi to me when I dm with you?
2014-11-21 23:21:33
HEY HEY HEY HEY HEY HEY HEY HEY HEY HEY HEY HEY Thats should do for awhile :_D
2014-11-21 23:23:03
2014-11-21 23:46:46
Lose the spot is one thing, not even be allowed to compete in the last chance qualifier on the other hand?

As pointed out in the statement, they had invested a lot of time and money into this, they were and are an integral part of the scene - I can't see how the punishment is proportionate here, especially considering the team is more or less a victim of the incident. Not even communicating with the team in such a situation is ridiculious. I thought the whole outrage against cheating is based upon the idea that CS is a legit sport? In no legit sport would a team be treated like that.
2014-11-21 23:23:22
I understand how Titan must feel bad, but im on valve side here. thats how it should be handled. titan arguments to thin im affraid, they should have more control on their players before saying this things.
2014-11-21 23:12:26
Sorry Titan. If any such malicious activity has to be stopped the organizers of the event must take stern measures. This reminds teams to ensure their players are legit.
Also, If you're talking about doing 'everything right' you will hand over all winnings back to event organizers, for the whole period since you recruited KQLY.
2014-11-21 23:13:58
I'm with Valve on this one.

It does sucks for teams to get booted from a Major but in the end of it all, we are uncertain as to how much of an impact KQLY had on Titan. What i am saying is that virtually every game KQLY had could have been in vein. Thus, Titan's history is also put in vein.

I guess what i am saying is that because Titan had a cheater for an unknown period of time, it is uncertain whether that impacted any game they had to get to DH. (ironically i think Titan was invited? and then they did the roster swap). I unno. I'm blowin poop out my butt. Maybe i should think about it more but the way i see it, more teams have a chance to prove themselves of victory that were initially stripped away due to Titan.
2014-11-21 23:15:32
Volvo bunch of loosers.
Broken game, full of cheaters, VAC not working, not caring about legit players, not caring about legit teams if not called Nip.
Fuck volvo.
2014-11-21 23:16:02
I agree that it sucks for the reamining Titan members. Really fucking much.

However the bans on Titan and Epsilon are justified and the remaining players should be welcome to participate in the next major and/or it's qualifiers.

I think it's fair that Titan don't get a second chance in this last minute qualifier for the simple reason that there's no way of proving KQLY's innocence in the original qualifier.

I'm also very interested in how (if what KQLY says is true) Valve all of a sudden detects a cheat being used back in August. It's either a lie from KQLY's side (which seems most likely right now) or a way of detection that boards well for every other player since that most likely mean they are clean, atleast from this program, or whatever it is.

Post edited 2014-11-21 23:18:12
2014-11-21 23:16:53
"I think it's fair that Titan don't get a second chance in this last minute qualifier for the simple reason that there's no way of proving KQLY's innocence in the original qualifier."


"I think all of NiP's titles should be retracted because it's impossible to prove that GTR wasn't cheating."

very bad logic, Titan should most definitely be allowed in the qualifier

Post edited 2014-11-21 23:20:08
2014-11-21 23:19:59
That's not the eve close to the same thing since no member of NiP got caught cheating. Don't be dumb.

I feel more sorry for the team losing to Titan than the four remaining Titan members even though it sucks for them aswell.
2014-11-21 23:25:36
Then use jw or Delpan or someone else convicted of cheating in the past if that helps you understand the logical structure of the argument. Same thing.

I feel very sorry for both people losing to teams KQLY played in and the current members of Titan, neither deserved to be cheated by this piece of shit KQLY.
2014-11-21 23:31:28
JW never cheated and the so called "proof" of him cheating is ridiculous.

Delpan however, that's a whole other story ^

JW is and always was clean tho, I can tell you that :)
2014-11-21 23:33:36
Ok whatever, doesn't have anything to do with logic but you seem resistant to learn so I'll leave it at that.
2014-11-21 23:46:41
2014-11-22 00:24:36
FUCK YOU CHEATERS, NO MERCY. Tittan should be quiet, cause thats the biggest shame possible now. People shpuld think 1000 times more before "trying" what is it like to cheat.
2014-11-21 23:17:11
Where is this official Valves statement?
although I'\m a bit sad as they are a good team, it seems fair.
2014-11-21 23:20:49
INB4 Valve bans Titan from all future competitions, reason BLASPHEMY!!
2014-11-21 23:21:18
valve made the right decision here. organizations will now put in player contracts clauses allowing legal action in the event of cheating infractions, and such legal action WILL deter players at the pro level from hacking. For too long we've seen a treadmill of semipro onliners getting caught and coming back to the scene months later only to play again. Now it finally comes to this--the community bloodletting we've seen the last few days and will almost doubtlessly continue to see in the next few weeks will bring this scene much needed and hopefully inexorable change.
2014-11-21 23:21:23
dude there is no fucking way organisation or teammates can control players 24/7 to never cheat once, if he wants he will do it.
In no real sports team gets punished when 1 player uses doping.

Post edited 2014-11-21 23:27:12
2014-11-21 23:26:53
organizations should be the ones that pursue legal action against players in the event of cheating bans at the pro / semipro level. We have never seen that in the past but I honestly think that is what we will see in the future because of this decision by Valve.
2014-11-21 23:30:08
Dude if it was so easy to detect they would take measures against it long time ago, nobody could tell, smn cheated whole year.
Even if lans will be monitored more closely there still are tons of online leagues, qualifications for cheating.
With these private cheats, its almost impossible to tell when good player is cheating.
And i honestly thing that valve will not give a single fuck about it, these bans are not their merit.
And fucking titan over because of 1 cheater they could not possibly control, cmon...
2014-11-21 23:39:05
read my post and formulate a response instead of parroting thorin's opinions

I never implied that Titan could know KQLY cheated if he was properly discreet. I'm arguing that legal action threatened in contracts and carried out against players will prevent huge cheating scandals in the future.
2014-11-22 00:03:45
how does it justify titans removal?
p.s. i can hardly understand your posts only this part bothers me "valve made the right decision here"

Post edited 2014-11-22 00:09:30
2014-11-22 00:04:45
actually it's possible to detect and orgs have to take legal actions against players who cheat. Just make random inspections for gear and drivers. Cheating software is "baked" inside mouse + headphone driver.
I'm with Valve on this one!

p.s. - kqly was kicked out of previous team. official statement was like "he was ragging". because of this ban maybe reason was something else. Titan isnt poor org in bangladesh prision they have a gaming house and they all live together. i'm sure rest of the baguets knew it!
2014-11-22 01:45:58
2014-11-21 23:49:17
Win together, lose together. The whole team will just have to suck it up. Nothing wrong with what Valve did
2014-11-21 23:21:45

Titan's finger pointing is just making them look so, so bad.. They say 'The actions of an individual were instead needlessly allowed to affect an entire team.' Don't they realize, that it's the collective actions of 5 individuals that make the team in the first place? In other words, every single game they play, they are allowing the actions of individuals to affect the entire team; only in *this* scenario, however, are they protesting. They should be ashamed, and take responsibility.

Again, ty Valve, for banning the players that are ruining things.

Post edited 2014-11-21 23:52:40
2014-11-21 23:51:46
Valve icecold <3
2014-11-21 23:22:02
Valve doesn't care about the competitive CS scene and the game itself. Even in the most important time.

Post edited 2014-11-21 23:23:17
2014-11-21 23:22:20
because they want ban cheaters and teams that use cheaters to gain unfair advantage?

omg, volvo is so evil..
2014-11-22 01:49:51
They won't even have a conversation with Titan or Epsilon about the player from their teams that hacked. How are they supposed to learn anything if they cannot even talk to the developers? How are they to redeem their reputations if they are forced to sit at home while being called cheaters when Planet Key is playing in the tournament?

Why is the CZ-75 still in the game. Why couldn't they at least ban the CZ from Dream Hack weeks ago?

Why when people try to have a serious conversation about game play with Valve it always feels like they are not really listening or at least giving a shit about what people say? Then they release an update trolling people with more chickens, etc.

Post edited 2014-11-22 02:01:49
2014-11-22 02:00:14
" letting us know we had been disqualified by allowing us to read it ourselves at the same time as the rest of the community." - FUCK YOU. Your team was cheating at this point, noone wants your opinion any longer. Just make sure that your players won't try "whatisitlike tocheat"!
2014-11-21 23:23:18
removing titan from DHW is such an unfair decision
2014-11-21 23:23:24
Fuck valve, they don't give two shits about the competitive scene. They need ESEA to do their job for them and have absolutely no respect towards the teams involved; the innocent players deserve the chance to at least be able to qualify.
2014-11-21 23:23:27
Very well written piece and I am incline to agree with them.
2014-11-21 23:23:45
"Had they been invited to the LAN qualifier scheduled for tomorrow at Inferno Online Stockholm, Titan would use Jeremy "ioRek" Vuillermet, the team's coach, as a stand-in."

explain pls.
2014-11-21 23:24:16
there's a new qualifier tomorrow, what's not to understand?
2014-11-21 23:32:14
so Titan is allowed? u dun get my point.
2014-11-22 00:18:53
they're not
2014-11-22 01:21:07
French wouldnt have made it out of groups anyway. Later Frenchies
2014-11-21 23:26:05
I wish they were this consistent when it comes to matchmaking.. But they don't make money from professionals cheating I guess. :P
2014-11-21 23:26:13
valve never talks about vac bans, period. the fact that titan decided to take an "upset" stance at that really shows their ignorance.

be upset all you want boys.

that's how it's always been, how it's always gonna be.

maybe next year.

Post edited 2014-11-21 23:27:42
2014-11-21 23:26:52
volvo please give us Titan to dhw :( !!!!!

Post edited 2014-11-21 23:27:48
2014-11-21 23:27:05
He is saying that they (cheat coder) contacted him to try out the cheat if he's interested. They gave him a 7 days trial.

FOR GOD SAKE, is this guy stupid and he thinks we gonna believe that?

Dude if you are trying out a cheat, you don't do it on your main account.

KQLY is cheating since at least 2 years now


2014-11-21 23:27:10
Titan is 100% right. Whatever you want, if some players get a vac ban, they just get an automatic copy-paste answer from the "Support" nothing else. If you have a FPS drop problem after a update (like me once) then you get also like 1 standard answer via mail that doesn´t fit your question at all!

It seems like valve is just saving money and don´t want to have more workers in the support!!!

In this case it´s even worse: Yeah we will just stop a career of a Pro Player right now, because we do :Kappa: No reason, no information even to the Titan team, gg Valve, once again!
2014-11-21 23:29:08
WH-y should we trust a cheater? : )
2014-11-21 23:32:26
I think the team is a unit which consists of individuals, you can't expect to get a judgement excluding the team when part of the whole is penalized. Do they expect that they could in theory immediately replace a cheating member with another and get to compete until the new one will be banned?

Post edited 2014-11-21 23:34:14
2014-11-21 23:32:45
Goodbye KQLY, it's been nice
Hope you find your paradise

2014-11-21 23:34:01
2014-11-21 23:36:27
have no idea about how well VAC detects cheats, but it would be nice to get a statement from valve regarding if they know WHEN KQLY used these cheats. if he , like he said, only used the cheats in uninportant matches/mm ( not saying this is okay behaviour ), i dont see the reasoning behind banning the whole team from the tournament. however, if he cheated in real matches that in some way helped ldlc/titan gain the spot at dreamhack, banning the whole team is really the only option

Post edited 2014-11-21 23:37:37
2014-11-21 23:36:51
hahaha only for 7 days? sure kd from 0.90 something to 1.15 something hahahah
2014-11-21 23:38:42
good points.. sad for titan
2014-11-21 23:42:00
haha Titan mad? imo very good decision by Valve. Organizations should consider including some cheating clauses to prevent cheating, it's also their role. They should be punished for cheating, i don't care if they knew. Talking shit like "he only cheated few days on another account on mm" only pisses me off more.
2014-11-21 23:44:30
OMFG FRENCHMAN!!! take the responsibility!!!! Its not valves fault... kQly have cheated for a looooong time now... valve is not VAC ban pro players for fun or fast... We all remember CLAN-MYSTIC who won ESWC 2013... I'm so sure that the whole team cheated or all 5 players at the team know there was cheat on the team....VACation fucking noobs kQly!
2014-11-21 23:45:38
retard can you even read lol
2014-11-22 01:15:43
Valve made a firm statement here to entire CS:GO community and pro players, if one team mate do the mistake entire team needs to suffer. So logically thinking it is harsh but the decision taken by VALVE at the moment is totally right.
2014-11-21 23:47:34
2014-11-22 03:35:21
And why would we belive that he was cheating "outside of a competitive context and on another Steam account" ban is ban, kkthxbai
2014-11-21 23:47:50
Titan got screwed here, they definitely should've been allowed to play the LAN qualifier with a step-in.
2014-11-21 23:54:03
yes Titan got screwed by KQLY not by valve or dreamhack or anybody else now they have to live with the consequences

2014-11-22 00:12:50
They got screwed by KQLY and lost their spot at dreamhack. They got screwed by dreamhack/valve when they didn't get the chance to play at the LAN qualifier with another fifth.
2014-11-22 00:24:18
a cheat is a cheat it's titan's fault for not looking out at their players. why should a "pro" deserve less punishment than any regular player. stop fuckin whining and thank you volvo for doing this
2014-11-22 00:04:15
In my opinion its a good decision, it's like a punishment for the team, because no pro player should ever use cheats, so to me it's a nice move from the Valve admins to not allow the titan team to join the tournment and more than that, with this the other players who they might think that are using cheats, now are aware of what might happen to them and the team they represent if they get caught.
I think its a nice warning to the pro scene.
And btw, why the hell are you going to cheat online if you had proved yourself on lan that you are a good player? Thats just nonsense stupid act to me.

Post edited 2014-11-22 00:09:41
2014-11-22 00:08:28
Valve are really handling this situation like shit. I am glad they finally caught up to a cheat like this, but they should not treat the professional players and organizations like this. Ever single team and organization is the best commercial link Valve ever gonna get, they need to treat them with respect at the very least.
2014-11-22 00:08:51
If kqly was manually banned by valve who made sure he's guilty, than yeah maybe it would be better if they contacted titan. If he was just hit by the ban wave like many others than valve couldn't do anything.
2014-11-22 00:10:09
So sad for Titan

Post edited 2014-11-22 00:16:43
2014-11-22 00:15:41
Any team with any cheater in it should be removed from any upcoming event, it's the organizations fault just as much the players, the organizations need to be strict and make sure the players are clean..

Edit - Valve needs to work closely with these organizations to ensure they are within the rules whilst competing in online events, doesn't matter if Valve aren't apart of it.

Post edited 2014-11-22 00:17:32
2014-11-22 00:15:46
Well think of it like this:

Kukli cheated for a long time and none of his teammates knew about it.

He cheated his way to Titan.

There are a lot of very "good" cheaters who know how to cheat.
2014-11-22 00:19:30
Titan is an employer they have to bear some responsibility for the action of their player concerning cs go

who knows if they knew about it or if his teammates knew about it, maybe it didn't have an impact on anything, maybe he and in consequence his team screwed over a ton of other team out of who knows how many tournaments they don't deserve to be in this one the employer needs to have their players under control they will only learn it if there are consequences
2014-11-22 00:20:23
I understand its an individual of the team that fucked it up for the team but titan and all teams should have a greater lock down on the people they hire.

It sounds to me that titan is trying to blame valve for getting banned at DHW.
2014-11-22 00:21:08
next kennys
2014-11-22 00:23:11
Dont allow titan and epsilon to come back by no any means!!! They cheated, whole organization MUST PAY NOW! Reset these two team of all statistics and everything they have achieved, delete their history
2014-11-22 00:23:51
Simple, organisations need to start handing out their own hardware... And running software on it that detects bad shit, and consequently lets them know of wrong doing.. The pro player should not be allowed any access rights (software) to the machine other than gaming. It will cover all of their backs.

Post edited 2014-11-22 00:26:47
2014-11-22 00:25:55
it's simple guys
2014-11-22 00:31:13
its like the doping with Lance Armstrong, after admiting he told many others did the same to be on that level. so many other must be too, especially newcomers.
now think why teams like nip went from top to top15. too much skill in this pro scene. too much fucking coders and noob valve. gg noob game noob life
2014-11-22 00:27:32
Titan, there is no standpoint for you to blame on Valve. One of your players in the team was caught cheating which was shameful enough, what about others? They practice together and even live together, I don't believe that they didn't notice this matter. The rest could be accomplices by conniving the dishonest acts.
2014-11-22 00:27:55
cheaters doesn't deserve second chances
2014-11-22 00:28:09
Disqualifying them was the right thing to do imo. I find it hard to believe the team didn't know he was cheating. The minute they found out they should have released him and replaced him. No it's not as easy as it sounds but it's either that or risk being DQ/banned from majors for your lack of integrity. DQ'ing those teams is an excellent way to make an example out of them. Basically saying "Hey, we don't tolerate cheating in any way, shape or form and we're not fucking kidding". Maybe teams will think twice about allowing a cheater to play for them.
2014-11-22 00:28:41
organizations have to pay fine for cheater in their team lack of experience in the management.
Good for CsGo and Make organisations better research before contracting players

Post edited 2014-11-22 00:29:38
2014-11-22 00:28:52
don't worry guys, KQLY and Sf only cheated once in matchmake on other accounts

2014-11-22 00:29:59
2014-11-22 00:32:53
It's totally unprofessional from Valve to deliver the new to Titan in a press release, before notifying them.
Beside that, the lack of communication regarding other topics is also absurd. But even more absurd, in my opinion, is Titan even considering a chance to get back on the event.
2014-11-22 00:33:20
fuck them all. if he cheated. they knew. u dont live together and dont know if he cheats or not. noob saucers french.
next kennyS
then jw
or fnatic get stomped again like they did in all their time and jw escapes ban :D
2014-11-22 00:39:00
+1, after what they said i would ban their team FOREVER.

Post edited 2014-11-22 00:48:37
2014-11-22 00:48:25
idiot KQLY bot KQLY
2014-11-22 00:43:43
Ok after reading the whole statement and the part of lack of communication from Valve I have this to say. I believe it is unfair for the rest of the team to get punish for one team mate. I do believe that Titan and Epsilon should have given the cahnce to regain their spot at DH if they could find a 5th in time. However, with that being said I also because what Valve did was also a good thing. The reason I said that because it will teach the organization to keep an closer eyes on their players and ensure that everyone is following the rules. I think after this whole scandal a lot of organization are going to ensure their players are legit and no one is cheating so this would not happen to them
2014-11-22 00:47:40
(Repost of #284, as wonder what people believe about this):

Hypothetically speaking, if you were a fan of Titan and all this unfortunate information came to light, would you be more or less impressed by your team for taking the painful but (arguably?) more prinicipled stance, of accepting the DQ with dignity and resolving to preparing for the next major?

Genuinely curious to know what opinion you and others would have on this as much of this entire affair appears to comne down to personal interpretations of what is 'fair', 'necessary' and 'suitable'.

(Please note, I'm not talking about Volvo's lack of communication here. Indeed I'm not entirely sure why they wouldn't contact a pro team in advance of this type of announcement. I suppose to a company like Valve, they may still look at 'pro gaming teams' as relatively onconsequential organisations. In many instances that may well be the case.)
2014-11-22 00:49:09
titan already had a similar issue with esea about being kicked out of their event, esea tried to communicate with them and titan still complained when they weren't rewarded special treatment.
2014-11-22 00:58:33
With several players already banned, and probably more to come, I think volvo needed to take a firm stand against the cheaters. Its of course sad for the rest of Titan, but at the same time its a good way to send out a signal that if you cheat, there will be severe consequences.
I honestly hope that Titan will fine KQLY for at least some of the lost revenue DH winter would have brought the team.
KQLY u suck.
2014-11-22 00:52:54
im very sad for titan (especially ex6)
2014-11-22 01:27:07
perfectly fine with what valve did. they treated kqly like any other cheater and simply followed through with their rules of kicking them out of DHW. rules that we've all known about for months.
2014-11-22 00:55:24
Even tho I don't really like TITAN, I feel bad that they can't attend to DHW because of that, but at least that won't happen again (i guess orgs, sponsors, etc.. will care a lot more about that since TITAN lost quite a lot of money)
2014-11-22 01:02:43
Well jesus christ! TUFF SHIT! If you have a hacker in your team you are out, it's that easy so stfu and take what you deserve..
2014-11-22 01:04:56
2014-11-22 01:21:54
chill virgin net gangster french hater, every comment your post is full of hate, you must be weak lol

Post edited 2014-11-22 01:25:01
2014-11-22 01:24:22
Not even close to every comment. Haven't been banned for the longest, so I guess it's alright my neighbour. These french fucks ruined other teams by cheating, might've made them disband because of their loss. Now justice, it's great.
2014-11-22 01:28:14
maybe don't play innocent and tell ppl u didn't know about kqly cheating, then stfu pls cause u suck for playing with cheater(s)
2014-11-22 01:22:32
GtFO...who cares!?
2014-11-22 01:28:25
Don't cry NiaK, VALVe is sending a message. If you cheat you impact your whole team! They are not gonna go: "OK, srry he cheated here go earn $50.000+ as a reward."
2014-11-22 01:31:44
VALVe should get their shit together with VAC, its pure garbage and they dont seem to care...
2014-11-22 01:37:51
he looks like he is 40 years old if he was not banned he should retire anyways

bb don't come back
2014-11-22 01:33:54
good riddance
2014-11-22 01:56:06
Titan Scream now? :D
2014-11-22 02:24:37
Wouldnt be good to let Orgas and teams to the event after cheater realve.
2014-11-22 02:45:04
This is a prime example of the French mentality. Bringing a cheater into a competition (it doesn't matter if he knew about it or not), getting busted and disqualified, having the cockiness to demand for the right to re-qualify in a special qualifier that has to be hold because of what his clan caused and then cry because his demand got refused. And he isn't even ashamed of it.
2014-11-22 02:47:58
Sorry but I fail to see how you can play with someone day in day out for hours and hours each day and not realise they're cheating. Bullshit in my eyes, they're all in on it.

It's upto Titan as an organisation to have the right amount of trust in their players and to make good decisions as a company. If their players want to fuck them over then they've obviously made a poor decision somewhere along the line. The players are representative of the organisation and unfortunately although the blame is on the player, the responsibility is with Titan.
2014-11-22 02:58:49
That's harsh on Titan, i respect ex6tenz enough to know he wouldn't have stood by knowing that he's teammate is cheating.

they should be allowed to have another shot at the major.

and kqly we don't believe you cheated on another account you are a fucking liar.
2014-11-22 03:32:52
Typical french people, never owning up to shit. They were harboring a cheater, they deserved to get punished as a whole.
2014-11-22 03:42:17
eezii cheats ezzii life
2014-11-22 03:51:09
"One for all, and all for one" - explanation for Titan management.
2014-11-22 03:51:33
So, if we can't prevent or even detect advanced cheats... how about we allow them for everybody? I mean if 10-15% aim increasing cheat will only be truly useful in hands of a professional player because of his abilities then if all pro-players used it then the whole CS:GO 'ecology' would somehow equalize and calibrate itself, wouldn't it? The edges over other teams/players would decrease though.

Just a thought, don't take it too seriously. The thing is the whole situation reminds me of HUDs and seating scripts in online poker. If you can't fight it - legalize it for everyone to recalibrate the balance back.

Too crazy?

Post edited 2014-11-22 04:34:59
2014-11-22 04:29:58
he doesnt disKQLYfied himself he disKQLYfied his whole team .. feel bad for the Rest of Titan
2014-11-22 04:34:17
Yeah but I want it like before where they needed to undergo rehab.
2014-11-22 08:20:47
The Colon still playing ... i think players deserve the second chances !
but ofc .if they will alert one more time . lifetime ban !
2014-11-22 04:43:12
great stuff cheaters
2014-11-22 04:51:38
damn quqly
2014-11-22 05:29:36
but if he cheated only 1 week... im pretty sure valve can know when he cheated... so why ruin his 12 year career for 1 week of matchmaking cheating?
2014-11-22 06:17:17
Cheater is a cheater. He's not a kid. No second chance in proteams, pls.
2014-11-22 06:48:42
this happens when you play with random unknown people. kqly fucking nonamer
2014-11-22 07:12:24
2014-11-22 07:39:16
What a joke Titan!
2014-11-22 08:36:40
Volvo stronK, KQLY wronk
2014-11-22 08:47:20
I'm a big fan of Titan and specially of KennyS, but I think their manager is not right. This punishment is fair, and it will set an example for cheaters in the future. If you cheat, you don't only jeopardize your own future but also your team's

I feel sad cause I won't see KennyS @ DH, but I'm glad they don't let Titan participate. Fuck cheaters!
2014-11-22 11:08:55
+ 1 !
Im with ya 100% !!!!
2014-11-22 11:24:07
plz back SreaM
2014-11-22 11:39:11
so titan stole spot from ldlc because they took their players.their player cheated and they blame valve because they arent able to attend dh now? jesus fucking christ is this statement even serious?
2014-11-22 11:57:17
I hope this serves as an example for the rest of the cheating f*ggots (looking at you fnatic), I am glad they are not allowing the team to participate. It's the military rules, you fuck up and it's on your team, ohhhhh the shame...
2014-11-22 12:03:21
"Titans critize Valve" omg... If I was manager of Titans, I would keep mouth shut! It`s one of your guys has been cheating... I`m bit speachless...

Post edited 2014-11-22 12:23:49
2014-11-22 12:23:18
Idd, fucking crying about his money. Maybe next time Titan's manager can convince his employees not to cheat.
2014-11-22 13:37:32
Players contract:

If you get caught hacking, the player is commited to pay a 50.000 repair and refund 50% of his earnings (salary + prize money + stickers)

hacking problem in pro scene solved. ez

Post edited 2014-11-22 12:43:26
2014-11-22 12:42:05
yeah titans manager si supex0 ,nice guy
2014-11-22 13:43:30
Valve did the right thing. It's also about sending a message. If one of your team is cheating, then you are out. End of discussion.
2014-11-22 13:48:00
who is supex0?
2014-11-22 14:36:10
I really don't agree with epsilon and titan not getting another shot to qualify without the cheaters.

If teams had the resources to check if their players cheat then sure I'd agree with it. But they can't and it's not like hacks are obvious like they were in the early 00s.

Being dqd and having to requalify is punishment enough for the other 4 players. It's not really fair to them at all that they can no longer compete in this event. There's really no way for them to know for sure that their teammate was cheating. For all we know he might have never cheated in an actual match or while playing with the team.

If anything Valve is just as much at fault for not catching either of them sooner. If they were busted earlier the two teams would have gotten a 2nd chance like planet key.

If I'm in the shoes of any of the remaining 8 players I'd be really pissed that I got cheated out of being in a tournament for something I had no control over. Really not fair at all and I'm sure the people saying titan should suck it up would be complaining too if they were in the same position.

Post edited 2014-11-22 14:46:34
2014-11-22 14:44:53
omg dat kqly
2014-11-22 15:38:02
Yeah he hacks 100%.
2014-11-22 16:34:31
Bbye Kukli go play with other cheaters
2014-11-22 16:03:53
"Only cheated once in matchmaking"

Yeah and I'm Oprah's left titty
2014-11-22 16:21:45
CS:GC = Counter-Strike Global Cheaters
2014-11-22 16:35:44
i think kqly cly
2014-11-22 16:36:18
Kukli style
2014-11-22 18:57:52
2014-11-22 18:58:50
valve should criticize titan for being dumbasses :)
2014-11-22 19:56:56
if 1 is cheating the team is cheating
2014-11-22 20:12:50
noooo they didnt know :D
2014-11-23 18:55:11

2014-11-22 23:37:16
Woppa Kukli Style

2014-11-23 10:19:32
2014-11-23 15:20:47
2014-11-23 18:52:01
Why shouldn't the team serve AT LEAST a 1 year ban from LAN tournaments. The team itself should bear part of the punishment since it CANNOT EVER be assumed that the other players had no knowledge of the situation. No ban and you may as well pick up another cheater with a new coder.
2014-11-24 05:01:15
2014-12-07 21:12:25
Kappa (IE user)

Post edited 2015-02-08 02:49:03
2015-02-08 02:48:54
Kappa (IE user)
2015-02-08 02:49:08
Kappa (IE user)
2015-02-08 02:51:11
Kappa (IE user)
2015-02-08 02:51:16
kQLY removed vac ban, confirmed
2015-02-08 02:51:37

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