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METHOD =DD!
HLTV.org reviews WMF defuse
HLTV.org's Editor in Chief Luís "MIRAA" Mira casts his eye on the illegal defuse during the match between WeMade FOX and UNiTED.
Group C is currently on hold at Inferno Online after Evil Geniuses complained of WeMade FOX using a map bug to their advantage during the fifth round of the first half.
Sun Ho "termi" Pyun found himself in a one-on-two situation on Bombsite A and decided to go for the bomb, which he defused through the box, thus making an illegal action as you can see below.
However, the fact that Pyun did not defuse from a legal position did not affect the outcome of the round, as Roman "ROMJkE" Makarov did not peek and thus he would not have seen the Korean player even if he was positioned correctly.
Looking at the tournament rulebook, which is not available online, but I, just like all the teams that are here, had access to, in case of an illegal defuse, the team in question "will be subject to either a warning, at the minimum, or a forfeit loss, at the discretion of the referee."
I also had the chance to look at other tournaments' rulebooks, and I realized that Arbalet's rulebook is based on the WCG's. If you take a look at the rulebooks from CEVO and the ESWC, they say different.
ESWC: "The following actions are strictly prohibited during a game and will result in a 3 rounds loss which will be deducted at the end of the match, and a warning:
- Defuse a bomb through a wall, a roof, or any other element of the map is forbidden."
CEVO: "It is illegal to fully defuse a bomb through any solid object. CEVO officials retain full discretion in determining if an illegal defuse occurred and how many rounds may be reversed (no more than three (3) rounds will be reversed for each illegal defuse) if needed. Multiple violations by a player and/or team may also result in a suspension and/or team termination (suspension lengths and team termination are up to the judgment of the officials)."
Had Arbalet Cup used a rulebook like these two, and it would be clear what to do. In this case, we're talking about very shaky grounds, and this is a very hard call to make.
In a conversation with the Arbalet Cup admins, I was told that two facts will be considered:
1 - termi performed an illegal defuse;
2 - if termi had defused from a legal position, it would not have affected the outcome of the round, as ROMjKE did not peek.
Should the second fact be taken into consideration, it may well lessen the severity of the punishment here.
The ruling on this case will basically depend on the admins' assessment of the case. However, a tournament rulebook must be clear at all times, which is why, in my opinion, it should suffer some changes after this tournament to make punishments in cases like this crystal clear.
you fail to realize that termi ONLY attempted to full defuse BECAUSE of the position he was in. you are absolutely overlooking a key factor in assuming that he would have full defused if he was in a legal position.
2010-05-14 23:49:41
if you had read it all, you would see that what I write is based on Arbalet's rulebook. What you say is correct, which is why I say that it is necessary for rulebooks to be absolutely clear.
2010-05-14 23:52:10
you actually skipped over my point all together. i read your "analysis" if you can even call it that. you really just overlooked my question/point.
2010-05-14 23:54:43
what you fail to realize (and what is written in the post) is that I never say that EG aren't right. EG ARE RIGHT. But according to the tournament rulebook, which is what I base my article on, there is no specified punishment in cases like this, which, in my opinion, is not correct.
2010-05-15 00:04:46
i never was looking for you to say EG IS RIGHT. if you think that is all im pushing for than you are incorrect, maybe making assumptions because im american. i just wanted you to examine all of the possible situations, you basically said that regardless of it being an illegal defuse, termi would have won the round regardless. i am saying, that your statement only examines half of what could have happened, my point being that if termi was defusing from a legal position, there is a chance that he would not have full defused.
2010-05-15 00:10:54
it's a bit naive to say termi would of full defused if it was in a legal position. Regardless, it's the admins call on a punishment.
2010-05-15 00:47:54
Bottom point is that he wanted to say that there is no clear rule on this in their rulebook, so admins can make decision on what they think is most fair.
2010-05-15 01:30:17
"However, the fact that Pyun did not defuse from a legal position did not affect the outcome of the round, as Roman "ROMJkE" Makarov did not peek and thus he would not have seen the Korean player even if he was positioned correctly."
He's just saying this isn't true.
He's just saying this isn't true.
2010-05-15 15:09:53
in that case, wmf should get -3 round and the score would be 15-12 for United, and they should play the last 3 round?
2010-05-15 00:02:51
If things were that clear yes, but as MIRAA already stated they are not.
2010-05-15 00:33:32
i believe the rounds are over turned so the match would be 15+3= 18 for united, and 15-3=12 for WMF
2010-05-15 01:39:37
good point man
2010-05-14 23:54:33
thats bullshit.... u cant know that...
i think he would have gone for the full defuse either way... he wa low on health and there was no time
any way u can never know.... i think they shouldnt change the result.
but im sure u think eg should move to the next round.
i think he would have gone for the full defuse either way... he wa low on health and there was no time
any way u can never know.... i think they shouldnt change the result.
but im sure u think eg should move to the next round.
2010-05-15 00:00:35
i honestly don't care either way, i think there is viable reason to think either scenario would play out, i didn't say he WOULDNT have fulled defused, i was merely saying we can't assume he would have.
2010-05-15 00:04:47
#47 he wouldn't have gone for it full because of the reason if he had got on bomb the correct way which would have been facing towards the indents in the map you can see the ct throwing a flash thus meaning he would have gotten off to turn around from that him being in that kind of a position he didn't even get blind (and the base case scenario was if he was on the bomb facing towards the indents he would have stuck it) and as sin said yeah it only looked like he stuck it because of the position he was in
2010-05-15 04:45:35
The whole point of contention here is not whether Termi would have gotten the defuse or not had he done this or that, but rather, is the act of defusing the bomb through an object legal. Termi was in the bombsite at that time. To be honest, there wasn't any advantage to be gained whatsoever. Are you trying to tell me that Termi knew 100% that Romejike will not peak out so that he could continue to defuse all the way? Are you trying to tell me that the ability to hear Romejike running towards him an advantage? What a joke lol.
2010-05-15 05:32:58
You do not know that. He may have attempted to go for a full defuse regardless. This is pure speculation from your part.
2010-05-15 00:02:33
it is absolutely speculation, that is the point. in this analysis, it is also speculation to assume he would have defused. if we are going to speculate a scenario that we can never know the truth to, we should at least examine all the possibilities.
2010-05-15 00:06:15
well he could also had gone for the kills, and since i see termi as a better player than the two alive terrorists, he could have won the round by shooting them.... and the list goes on.
you have to look at what happened, and since noone peaked the scenario is: he would've won regardless of where he was defusing from since no one took a peak on him. would he have stopped defusing if he was sitting normally? no-one knows and won't ever find out, so that's not really viable taking into consideration.
you have to look at what happened, and since noone peaked the scenario is: he would've won regardless of where he was defusing from since no one took a peak on him. would he have stopped defusing if he was sitting normally? no-one knows and won't ever find out, so that's not really viable taking into consideration.
2010-05-15 10:49:47
Eg is just looking for a way to not be sent home.. they need to just stfu and take a loss.. america sucks and will never win internationally.
2010-05-15 00:08:45
how's canada doing lately?
2010-05-15 00:11:06
pretty good. we had some nice weather up here today.. it was my day off to so i was able to enjoy it. i had some cpt sub for lunch and bought my gf some tim hortons before she had to go to work. then i walked to the movie store and rented day walkers and red cliff. i really look forward to watching red cliff.. it's a jon woo flick, you should check it out. and a randy but super cute girl came to my door today who lives in my apt and invited me out to coffee but i had to self-cock-block because i have a gf.. sad face!
2010-05-15 00:14:45
:-D
2010-05-15 01:36:36
#2 is right
2010-05-15 01:35:21
completely agree. regardless on whether or not romjke did not peek, the outcome could have possibly been different had termi legally defused the bomb. therefore it had an affect on the round and possibly rounds after. whether or not termi still could have won that round, the end doesn't justify the means.
2010-05-15 01:40:05
3. Who is to say termi would've continued to defuse if he had been out in the open? Is that such a hard question to ask? That effected the round right there, if your incomplete "review" pushes the admins to lessen the severity of the punishment you should feel stupid
Post edited 2010-05-14 23:53:02
Post edited 2010-05-14 23:53:02
2010-05-14 23:52:49
phhhhhhhh u cant know how the round would have ended if he wouldnt have gone from the side... mybe he would continue the defuse... even if he was on the open.. .
mybe he would have killed romjeke... u cant know... i hope the admins will not take the round away from wmf as they deserve to go throught....
mybe he would have killed romjeke... u cant know... i hope the admins will not take the round away from wmf as they deserve to go throught....
2010-05-14 23:56:45
quite a common situation
don't see the problem. normally defused =\\
don't see the problem. normally defused =\\
2010-05-14 23:54:48
So when did an illegal action become legal just because the ending would be the same??
Do the ends justify the means?????
Do the ends justify the means?????
2010-05-14 23:56:28
He performed an illegal defuse and stayed on because from that spot you do not have to worry about the standard peek around the corner.
It is more likely than not had he done a legal defuse he would have faked.
I still stand by giving the round to UNiTED because it is more likely than not that the outcome would have been totally different.
It is more likely than not had he done a legal defuse he would have faked.
I still stand by giving the round to UNiTED because it is more likely than not that the outcome would have been totally different.
2010-05-14 23:56:54
Yea he didn't peak but if your gonna use that theory, termi wouldn't of full defused. cmon he stuck the bomb cuz he knew he wouldnt have the time to run around the corner or if he did even peak he wouldn't of saw him defusing.
So how about we just stick to the point he illegal defused after knowing he was light pole. Remember if he even did try to peak him real quick he would not of seen them..
Post edited 2010-05-14 23:57:37
So how about we just stick to the point he illegal defused after knowing he was light pole. Remember if he even did try to peak him real quick he would not of seen them..
Post edited 2010-05-14 23:57:37
2010-05-14 23:56:58
i have seen this defuse before in a official match. actually i think i saw it in a esl match not too long ago. no protests seen afterwords (i dont remember which match)
2010-05-14 23:57:09
this should be legal...really.
Post edited 2010-05-14 23:59:44
Post edited 2010-05-14 23:59:44
2010-05-14 23:58:08
+1
This should be illegal at GR in nuke... Because it's impossible to wall with glock =__=
This should be illegal at GR in nuke... Because it's impossible to wall with glock =__=
2010-05-15 00:01:47
lol....go home eg..
2010-05-15 00:00:32
And this is illegal defuse? Pure joke for me. I remember this situation www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoH_8TCfWZQ and how u can call it?
2010-05-15 00:00:44
Whole other event and different rules.. Rules are meant to be followed. End of story...
2010-05-15 00:05:24
lmfao owned
2010-05-15 00:55:27
and can he defusing the bomb through a floor?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwmygF4yzWU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwmygF4yzWU
2010-05-15 00:02:07
in ESL rules book it's forbidden since a while but i dont know with Arbalet rules.
2010-05-15 00:10:40
he he defused behind a box because HE had in mind that romjke would pick which he didn't.But the thing is if he would do a normal defuse he would fake it 90% because he knew rom wa slurking but he didnt to make it sure...IMO wmf IS OUT!!
2010-05-15 00:02:57
the bomb is planted in that position so that the CT is forced to be in the open when they defuse. termi knew that they were at pole, and stayed on the bomb because the prefire by romjke didn't influence or scare him at all. it's fair to say that had termi defused from a normal spot that he would have been influenced by those shots and got off the bomb. in all honesty this should be a round for united. anyone that says otherwise is about as ignorant as Fox News.
2010-05-15 00:03:08
well i dont think so i was thinking so before....but after watching rom's pov i guess its all clear....he dint peak at all...maybe ignorant of him and bad for eg...still i wont give that round to united...
2010-05-15 00:15:02
he was still trying to influence termi into getting off the bomb. if he heard the defuse, then ran away, i would agree. but the fact of the matter is that termi broke the rules that influenced two other team's placings for $37,000. it's not like it was the last second and he had to defuse from that spot. he purposely put himself in that position so that he would not get influenced by any peaks, flashes, or spamming. romjke threw a flash and spammed the ak. if you're in the legal position defusing and you don't get off after that, you have more balls than Duke Nukem.
2010-05-15 00:21:47
no need to get emosional and stuff....dude it was the last second i guess and i believe u that rom tried to scare termi off...but i dont think he wud have left the bomb even if he wud have seen rom. shooting him..
that isnt the first time that has happened...it happens many time some1 trys to diffuse at the last moment and keep doing so until he dies or the bomb is diffused,so my point is termi went in knowing that he wud die or diffuse the bomd[same situation when diffusing legally]...but he acted oversmart and broke a rule...so wat do u want me to say? i think even if romjke wud have peeked and termi be in a legal posi..he wud still keep diffusing as it was his only chance to win the round....
P.S.-i do have larger ballz than duke nukem...peace!!
that isnt the first time that has happened...it happens many time some1 trys to diffuse at the last moment and keep doing so until he dies or the bomb is diffused,so my point is termi went in knowing that he wud die or diffuse the bomd[same situation when diffusing legally]...but he acted oversmart and broke a rule...so wat do u want me to say? i think even if romjke wud have peeked and termi be in a legal posi..he wud still keep diffusing as it was his only chance to win the round....
P.S.-i do have larger ballz than duke nukem...peace!!
2010-05-15 00:59:22
you forgot the part where termi wasn't flashed because of his illegal defuse.
2010-05-15 01:24:10
LoL why would termi stop defusing if he was flashed? Time was ticking and it was clearly a defuse or die situation there regardless.
2010-05-15 04:25:01
ROMjKE had a flash in his hand. He threw it in and yet he wasn't man enough to even take a look at the bomb plant for any Terrorist. If u tell me he has nothing, and he plans to wait for Termi to stop his fake, I can't say anything. But clearly as a CT, you should not RELY on the RULE BOOKS TO GIVE U AN ADVANTAGE. Your job is to defend and protect the site.
2010-05-15 05:03:35
Seeing how it didn't really influence the outcome...EG's going home.
2010-05-15 00:04:24
It is like leaving a empty bombsite, and even if they broke 2139128 rules it wouldn't change anything if they fallowed since no one was at the bombsite, same with with romjke.
but yea it was wronge and if he didn't defuse it like that then it would change probably something and maybe wouldn't change at all.
Post edited 2010-05-15 00:07:34
but yea it was wronge and if he didn't defuse it like that then it would change probably something and maybe wouldn't change at all.
Post edited 2010-05-15 00:07:34
2010-05-15 00:04:57
Even though the outcome would've been the same it's still against the rules and it should be punished. In your words it's okay to break the rules as long as the outcome is the same? That's like having Usain bolt win by 5 meters, get caught using doping, but that would be okay because he would've won with at least 2 meters anyway? U think that's okay? :D
2010-05-15 00:11:53
i didn't said its ok , we cannot now what would happen if termi would defused it at normal position. would he go full defuse as well?
did he go for the full defuse because of the position? we cannot no each and everyone has his own answer yes or no.
but still i think WMF should be warned and maybe punished by round decrease on next match.
EG , and SK preformed very low while WMF were solid in there games thats the only reason i try to "defend" them.
Post edited 2010-05-15 00:19:10
did he go for the full defuse because of the position? we cannot no each and everyone has his own answer yes or no.
but still i think WMF should be warned and maybe punished by round decrease on next match.
EG , and SK preformed very low while WMF were solid in there games thats the only reason i try to "defend" them.
Post edited 2010-05-15 00:19:10
2010-05-15 00:17:21
The point is that it doesn't matter what happens during the round because he still broke a rule. And last time I checked, rules where meant to be followed. So it's doesn't matter who won that round.
2010-05-15 00:23:49
and according to the rulebook a minimal punishment[warning] wud be ok i guess...since it dint affect the outcome??
2010-05-15 01:06:04
lol at that...but u are wrong situation is not the same...usain bolt taking dope knowing that he wud win anyways...unlikely[for any1]...termi diffusing bomb illegali coz maybe he wont be able to diffuse otherwise....see any difference??
2010-05-15 00:37:14
That was just an example. The point was that it doesn't matter what happened during the round, who won etc. Cause he still broke a god damn rule, and clearly he did it on purpose so WMF should be punished with what's said in the rulebook. In this case a warning or a forfeit loss.
2010-05-15 09:32:17
Once again Drama, wondering if they'll find who betrayed his wife on the second season.
2010-05-15 00:05:05
*spoiler*
IT WAS THE GARTNER!!
IT WAS THE GARTNER!!
2010-05-15 01:38:15
termi took risk defusing bomb thru box and he knows it.
2010-05-15 00:05:22
It doesn't affect the round for UNiTED. End of the story.
Good night.
Good night.
2010-05-15 00:05:45
Think I saw allen doing the same defuse vs EG (not sure) but he ended up getting killed anyway
2010-05-15 00:06:59
How about we worry about the action and fck what the outcome would have been?
You are going to honestly tell me that termi 100% would not have moved at all if he was in a legal position? Stupid review.
You are going to honestly tell me that termi 100% would not have moved at all if he was in a legal position? Stupid review.
2010-05-15 00:07:48
you are just contradicting yourself mate. You tell us to focus on the actual action performed instead of guessing a possible outcome if he were in a legal position.
"You are going to honestly tell me that termi 100% would not have moved at all if he was in a legal position?"
"You are going to honestly tell me that termi 100% would not have moved at all if he was in a legal position?"
2010-05-15 00:16:50
He defuse ilegal he didnt check he just defuse!
2010-05-15 00:08:01
who is voting for a extra match between wmf and eg? ......... :D:D:D:
2010-05-15 00:08:04
stupid rulz :d
wmf deserve the win
and the other player didn't even check the bombesite !
wmf deserve the win
and the other player didn't even check the bombesite !
2010-05-15 00:09:08
even if termi would get MAX penalty -3 rounds, i think EG still not would again 2nd place?
2010-05-15 00:09:31
hmm i dont think romjke peeked at all...he was just assuming that it was a fake...termi's action doesnt affect the outcome of the round at all...if i were an admin wmf wud go thru...
2010-05-15 00:11:10
Read the rules again, guys.
"in case of an illegal defuse, the team in question will be subject to either a warning, at the minimum, or a forfeit loss, at the discretion of the referee."
Yes, he performed an illegal defuse. Remember, this is Arbalet Cup, not WCG or ESWC. That means, the Arbalet rules should apply here.
And that also means it depends on the admins point of view and other considerations whether WMF will receive points deduction or not.
IF this tournament had been WCG or ESWC, EG definitely would've advanced to the 2nd round.
Keep in mind, this is Arbalet !
"in case of an illegal defuse, the team in question will be subject to either a warning, at the minimum, or a forfeit loss, at the discretion of the referee."
Yes, he performed an illegal defuse. Remember, this is Arbalet Cup, not WCG or ESWC. That means, the Arbalet rules should apply here.
And that also means it depends on the admins point of view and other considerations whether WMF will receive points deduction or not.
IF this tournament had been WCG or ESWC, EG definitely would've advanced to the 2nd round.
Keep in mind, this is Arbalet !
2010-05-15 00:11:28
I think only a warning should be issued. Plus it's not like he's defusing through the floor or something. Even if he wasn't in that position he could of pulled a Spawn and full defused it anyway. The guy did not peak. End of Story. Leave WMF alone. *Remembers Lunatic Hai vs SK,CPL2005, De_inferno*
2010-05-15 00:11:56
1-the defuse was illegal, can't debate this
2-termi did not put himself in that position by accident, he deliberately went behind the box to fool his oponent.
therefore termi deliberately made an illegal defuse. this act is clearly sanctionable
sry guys, i like Wemade better than EG, but this is professional gaming, sanctions have to be applied if the rulles are broken
2-termi did not put himself in that position by accident, he deliberately went behind the box to fool his oponent.
therefore termi deliberately made an illegal defuse. this act is clearly sanctionable
sry guys, i like Wemade better than EG, but this is professional gaming, sanctions have to be applied if the rulles are broken
2010-05-15 00:11:56
+1
Finally someone with a brain here! :D Sadly guys like you are few and far between! :)
Finally someone with a brain here! :D Sadly guys like you are few and far between! :)
2010-05-15 00:17:18
The sanctions include only a warning though. This would change nothing in the placings. It's up to the admins.
2010-05-15 00:55:24
I wonder if anyone mentioned this earlier, but:
Is it even legitimate to file a complaint if you are not one of the teams who actually played the game?
In my opinion only UNITED should be the one failing a complaint. If they don't, bad luck for EG.
EG is clearly looking for a possibility to stay in the tournament - which isn't wrong at all. After all, there's quite a lot of money at stake. Money, honour and prestigue.
It's a really difficult case to decide since the rulebook doesn't fully elaborate how to handle this situation.
I'm glad I'm not one of the admins having to make a decision.
EDIT:
Oh, and by the way:
Stop talking about round deductions. The rulebook does not mention this as a sanction. It's either a simple warning or a default loss!
Post edited 2010-05-15 00:15:00
Is it even legitimate to file a complaint if you are not one of the teams who actually played the game?
In my opinion only UNITED should be the one failing a complaint. If they don't, bad luck for EG.
EG is clearly looking for a possibility to stay in the tournament - which isn't wrong at all. After all, there's quite a lot of money at stake. Money, honour and prestigue.
It's a really difficult case to decide since the rulebook doesn't fully elaborate how to handle this situation.
I'm glad I'm not one of the admins having to make a decision.
EDIT:
Oh, and by the way:
Stop talking about round deductions. The rulebook does not mention this as a sanction. It's either a simple warning or a default loss!
Post edited 2010-05-15 00:15:00
2010-05-15 00:12:43
Absolutely agree with U +100000000000000 the only team who can protest against this match should be only United and not EG!
2010-05-15 00:34:24
A default loss would be way too harsh. Warning would suffice. EG need to stop whinging.
2010-05-15 04:45:28
my Point exactly!
2010-05-15 09:44:36
Even though the outcome would've been the same it's still against the rules and it should be punished. So everyone think it's okay to break rules as long as the outcome is the same? That's like having Usain bolt win by 5 meters, get caught using doping. But that would be okay because he would've won with at least 2 meters anyway? Does that sound right in your ears?
Termi broke the rules for ->THIS<- tournament, end of story...
Termi broke the rules for ->THIS<- tournament, end of story...
2010-05-15 00:15:19
that's pathetic... they never even poked so have no right to complain.
2010-05-15 00:16:44
What does that have to do with anything since Termi still broke a rule? And rules are meant to be followed.
2010-05-15 00:18:54
If they poked out and saw no one defusing, then it got defused. Then yes, they have a right to possibly complain. End of the day, they have sat and watched hltv in the hope they find something which puts them through.
Pathetic losers......
Pathetic losers......
2010-05-15 00:44:22
What does that have to do with anything here? Termi defused thru the box on purpose and that's not allowed according to the rulebook. It doesn't matter what the hell romjke did. His action doesn't affect the fact that Termi still did an illegal defuse, capisce?
If it would be like you said then it would be okay for everyone to silent plant on Dust2 for example because they could say that it didn't change the outcome of the game.. See the logic in that? I could tell you more examples but you probably wont get it anyway. Have a nice day!
If it would be like you said then it would be okay for everyone to silent plant on Dust2 for example because they could say that it didn't change the outcome of the game.. See the logic in that? I could tell you more examples but you probably wont get it anyway. Have a nice day!
2010-05-15 09:43:05
so peddy and lame
u can play what if games all day,
point is that the angle of his defuse had no effect on the outcome of the round....
keep the result as it is and give wmf a warnning.
u can play what if games all day,
point is that the angle of his defuse had no effect on the outcome of the round....
keep the result as it is and give wmf a warnning.
2010-05-15 00:19:03
ROMjKE did not try to peek even if termi was in the legal position. no effect either ways in this match.
And clearly, EG lost their own matches.
so i think it's not a big deal in this case. should just give a warning, thats all imo.
And clearly, EG lost their own matches.
so i think it's not a big deal in this case. should just give a warning, thats all imo.
2010-05-15 00:19:42
Since Arbalet really likes our work with the rules at wcg I decided to reply to this. I see the problems on 3 different aspects:
1- In all honnesty, if that would happened during WCG I can insure you I would stand to give 3 rounds to united. + to all the ppl saying united didnt peek the guy, sure thing, they were by the window room exit and you can notice the footsteps going further to Roman's left POV. Outcome of the round / match should not be taken into consideration. If someone aimbots 4 of your teamates but you still manage to win the round, does it affect the game? It does, by changing the momentum, people being angry and not focusing on the game, guns that have been lost and that wouldn't. There's MUCH more than just the score to take into consideration when you play CS.
2- That said, it's up to the admins to decide wether or no EG has the right to dispute another match than theirs (I've seen that happen in the past). However, I'm not sure about the rules in Arbalet for third party teams disputing. Referees SHOULD have pointed that one out though.
3- I'm not sure it's the best move EG could do for their image, but I believe it's in their rights to at least protest. Wether it's an official dispute is up to the Arbalet's Cup admins. In WCG we use to have a rule (so did CAL back in the days) about trying to win a match only by using the rulebook. This has now be taken off every rulebooks because everyone could reasonably argue that a team filling up a protest is trying to win through the use of the rules (wich is why we have a rulebook in the first place).
Post edited 2010-05-15 00:30:51
1- In all honnesty, if that would happened during WCG I can insure you I would stand to give 3 rounds to united. + to all the ppl saying united didnt peek the guy, sure thing, they were by the window room exit and you can notice the footsteps going further to Roman's left POV. Outcome of the round / match should not be taken into consideration. If someone aimbots 4 of your teamates but you still manage to win the round, does it affect the game? It does, by changing the momentum, people being angry and not focusing on the game, guns that have been lost and that wouldn't. There's MUCH more than just the score to take into consideration when you play CS.
2- That said, it's up to the admins to decide wether or no EG has the right to dispute another match than theirs (I've seen that happen in the past). However, I'm not sure about the rules in Arbalet for third party teams disputing. Referees SHOULD have pointed that one out though.
3- I'm not sure it's the best move EG could do for their image, but I believe it's in their rights to at least protest. Wether it's an official dispute is up to the Arbalet's Cup admins. In WCG we use to have a rule (so did CAL back in the days) about trying to win a match only by using the rulebook. This has now be taken off every rulebooks because everyone could reasonably argue that a team filling up a protest is trying to win through the use of the rules (wich is why we have a rulebook in the first place).
Post edited 2010-05-15 00:30:51
2010-05-15 00:22:31
2 - if termi had defused from a legal position, it would not have affected the outcome of the round, as ROMjKE did not peek.
This assumption completely overlooks the other half of the argument - that if he did defuse from a legal position would he have intended to stay on the bomb the entire time? or would he also have stayed on the bomb after romjke shot an AK?
My personal opinion is that if he did defuse from a legal position, he would NOT have stayed on the defuse the entire time. I think by that video alone it is quite clear how eager he was to get on that defuse because he knew he would be covered from the safety of that 'illegal' position - but this is pure speculation, as is the HLTV.org argument, and BOTH sides need to be looked at.
In a conversation with the Arbalet Cup admins, I was told that the second fact will be taken into consideration, which may well lessen the severity of the punishment here.
If this is true, and my above point wasnt ALSO taken into consideration, then thats not really a fair decision at all and if HLTV.org influenced that to be the case then it'd be pretty bad. Both arguments are pure speculation, and both have equal merit to them and need to be taken into account.
This assumption completely overlooks the other half of the argument - that if he did defuse from a legal position would he have intended to stay on the bomb the entire time? or would he also have stayed on the bomb after romjke shot an AK?
My personal opinion is that if he did defuse from a legal position, he would NOT have stayed on the defuse the entire time. I think by that video alone it is quite clear how eager he was to get on that defuse because he knew he would be covered from the safety of that 'illegal' position - but this is pure speculation, as is the HLTV.org argument, and BOTH sides need to be looked at.
In a conversation with the Arbalet Cup admins, I was told that the second fact will be taken into consideration, which may well lessen the severity of the punishment here.
If this is true, and my above point wasnt ALSO taken into consideration, then thats not really a fair decision at all and if HLTV.org influenced that to be the case then it'd be pretty bad. Both arguments are pure speculation, and both have equal merit to them and need to be taken into account.
2010-05-15 00:22:45
Guys what about defusing bomb which is planted inside a box/wall/ground ? Still illegal ?
2010-05-15 00:27:04
how does a bomb get planted inside a box/wall/ground? if the bomb gets bugged and disappears, the team planting is at fault because it's a bug. your argument has absolutely nothing to do with this at all..
2010-05-15 00:29:43
The only place where this was possible was in Cbble on the big boxes (back in the days). They changed the BS area since this was causing a lot of problems. Other than that, #140 is right bomb would disappear and the Terrorists would be at fault.
2010-05-15 00:34:23
yes, I think that termi just did the defuse because of his position, if not he probably wouldn't defuse the bomb...
2010-05-15 00:27:31
just because a policeman doesnt see you break the law, doesnt mean its okay for you to do so.
2010-05-15 00:34:33
It's obvious that he intentionally broke a rule, whether he knew it or not, whether that affected the round is academic, however by the admins saying "We'll take it into account" on the second point they're basically saying "we'll warn them but nothing else". I think EG would've been much better for the tournament in the second group stage but oh well.
2010-05-15 00:37:19
I'm on EG's side with this one. Players at this high level of competition shouldn't be worrying about other "professional" players trying to perform illegal defuses when they sure as hell know it has been banned from every big tournament for over six years.
Termi and the other WMF players should be getting the bad image for harboring illegal defusing as if it was a normal thing to do, not EG for feeling they were screwed out of the chance of winning $37,000.
Termi and the other WMF players should be getting the bad image for harboring illegal defusing as if it was a normal thing to do, not EG for feeling they were screwed out of the chance of winning $37,000.
2010-05-15 00:52:36
the funniest thing is... that it could have been a reeeeally good ninja defuse!
if termi had been in the right possition ofc
D:
if termi had been in the right possition ofc
D:
2010-05-15 00:59:18
Well, only one thing. This type of situations, "defusing without seeing the bomb", must have one rule. Admins shouldn't make rules after the ilegal situation happen. The 3 rounds penalty for first incidence is good and the relapse should be very hard, like match lose or disqualification. But the rule must be clear. And the complaint could only be made by the "victim".
Post edited 2010-05-15 01:08:33
Post edited 2010-05-15 01:08:33
2010-05-15 01:00:07
I my opinion the effected Team has to complain about the rules not some 3rd party.
Also like some said he went for that on purpose, which shows he did not know it was/is forbidden, in many leagues it was or still is allowed.
Sure not knowing does not excuse breaking the rules but he did not try to cheat to win he thought it was legal.
It was illegal but default loss or round loss would be to hard in my opinion, repeat the game would be the fairest - like it is done when someone forgets Aequitas in the Proseries.
Also like some said he went for that on purpose, which shows he did not know it was/is forbidden, in many leagues it was or still is allowed.
Sure not knowing does not excuse breaking the rules but he did not try to cheat to win he thought it was legal.
It was illegal but default loss or round loss would be to hard in my opinion, repeat the game would be the fairest - like it is done when someone forgets Aequitas in the Proseries.
2010-05-15 01:06:56
In this case EG is not really the 3rd party since the outcome of this match will influence them too.
2010-05-15 02:09:30
Yep. Taking away rounds from WMF will be beyond retarded in this situation especially since the rules don't specify any penalties as far as I'm concerned. I don't think WMF deserve to be out of the tournament because of that one mistake they have made. EG would be more respected if they concentrated on improving their own game and analyzying their own mistakes rather than trying to find a flaw in other teams to get an extra edge
2010-05-15 01:16:00
No rules, no punishment.
Creating rules after the shit is done isn't fair.
The law can deviate from what is ethic. You all should've known that.
Post edited 2010-05-15 01:20:23
Creating rules after the shit is done isn't fair.
The law can deviate from what is ethic. You all should've known that.
Post edited 2010-05-15 01:20:23
2010-05-15 01:18:20
Did UNiTED complain about this?
i don't think so... EG, focus on your OWN game next time and try to don't suck that bad.
i don't think so... EG, focus on your OWN game next time and try to don't suck that bad.
2010-05-15 01:28:21
imho declare that termi did break a rule but a minimal warning wud be legit...as is the case with wcg..if the outcome of the round is unaffected ...which seems to be the case here...damn termi y on earth did u do that??y cudnt u just diffuse normally...xD
2010-05-15 01:30:14
after all this debate, i'm sad to say that WMF most likely is not going to get anything more than a "warning." even though what termi did was illegal, it is completely at the discretion of the admins to decide how to punish the team for it.
and i do believe a 3rd party can dispute another match, especially in this situation, where that one round is the deciding factor in which EG can advance or not.
the only people i see to blame is arbalet. there's nothing clear on what to do in this situation.
there's so many sides to this story, i would really hate to be the admins making this decision.
and i do believe a 3rd party can dispute another match, especially in this situation, where that one round is the deciding factor in which EG can advance or not.
the only people i see to blame is arbalet. there's nothing clear on what to do in this situation.
there's so many sides to this story, i would really hate to be the admins making this decision.
2010-05-15 01:33:08
it did not affect the outcome of the round? Perhaps ROMJkE would have heard it otherwise... If this is in the rules, it must be punished accordingly. If, however, Mr. Arbalet has not taken this into consideration, he's a noob.
2010-05-15 01:34:38
ROMjKE did not peek because obviously he assumed that termi was defusing from a legal position and therefore susceptible to his flash and peak.
termi did not get off because he knew that from his(illegal) position ROMjKE would have to run up to kill him and he would have heard his footsteps running. Therefore his illegal defusal position gave him a clear advantage in the situation and the rounds should be overturned.
termi did not get off because he knew that from his(illegal) position ROMjKE would have to run up to kill him and he would have heard his footsteps running. Therefore his illegal defusal position gave him a clear advantage in the situation and the rounds should be overturned.
2010-05-15 01:49:05
I fully agree
2010-05-15 02:08:13
The best of answer of them all
2010-05-15 04:44:01
this really makes sense
2010-05-15 08:55:22
At this point, I don't know how you couldn't overturn the round. As soon as you say, "what if he didn't illegal defuse", you know they need to be punished. It was illegal and we have to assume it effected the way the round played out. It's not like all 5 T's were dead and he defused illegally.
Maybe he would have defused it if he hadn't done the defuse like that, but we can't know that. Benefit of the doubt goes to the other team since WMF committed the offense.
Maybe he would have defused it if he hadn't done the defuse like that, but we can't know that. Benefit of the doubt goes to the other team since WMF committed the offense.
2010-05-15 02:06:09
If you think the round should be overturned now you are obviously biased toward EG. In my opinion, the round should NEVER be overturned when every matches are already completed and we all know the impact of that one round on all the other teams. If anyone is going to argue about taking away the round from WMF, it must have been DURING the match, not AFTER knowing that EG will advance once WMF lose one round. Taking away rounds from WMF after every matches are over is utter BS and would be extremely unfair for WMF esp since the rules don't even specify that.
2010-05-15 02:22:49
You don't pause matches to argue about illegal defuse rounds, you take care of them after. Also, his own team were probably the only ones at that time who knew that he illegal defused.
Read #189 please.
Read #189 please.
2010-05-15 03:24:55
NOT ILLEGAL
don't be a duchbag he is defusing the bomb inside the bombsite.. nothing to compare with the nuke underground defuse..
don't be a duchbag he is defusing the bomb inside the bombsite.. nothing to compare with the nuke underground defuse..
2010-05-15 02:10:23
That was the most epic thing that ever happended to cs. Ever.
2010-05-15 04:42:35
this one round decides whether EG got out of group or not, and WMF won the round illegally. EG should be there, not WMF. yes i am an EG fan, yes i am an american, but if this was any other team in the same circumstances i would have the same exact opinion.
this one round cost EG a chance at $37,000. this one round that WMF won illegally. although i really shouldn't be, i'm surprised that most of you are letting your distaste for americans sway your opinions. if it was switched and it was EG that got 2nd place in the group by a SINGLE ROUND DIFFERENCE that they won ILLEGALLY, the majority of you here would be saying that EG needed to be punished for it and out of the tournament.
Post edited 2010-05-15 02:28:26
this one round cost EG a chance at $37,000. this one round that WMF won illegally. although i really shouldn't be, i'm surprised that most of you are letting your distaste for americans sway your opinions. if it was switched and it was EG that got 2nd place in the group by a SINGLE ROUND DIFFERENCE that they won ILLEGALLY, the majority of you here would be saying that EG needed to be punished for it and out of the tournament.
Post edited 2010-05-15 02:28:26
2010-05-15 02:26:35
Let the haters be. They also think EG's 16-6 thrasing on SK is "mere luck". It really amazes me that such a dishonest play by termi can be excused just because it's EG, the american team, the one that's being affected.
Had it been FX, and 70% of the comments would be raging poles. SK or fnatic, and kids like Marcus1g would hop on the "X team blows they don't play fair" bandwagon.
I know this forum is full of teenagers that don't analyze possibilities other than what they hold true, but heck, encouraging unfair and dishonest plays and excusing a rule-forbidden action just because it's EG... Son, I am disappoint.
Had it been FX, and 70% of the comments would be raging poles. SK or fnatic, and kids like Marcus1g would hop on the "X team blows they don't play fair" bandwagon.
I know this forum is full of teenagers that don't analyze possibilities other than what they hold true, but heck, encouraging unfair and dishonest plays and excusing a rule-forbidden action just because it's EG... Son, I am disappoint.
2010-05-15 02:40:20
fact : "1 - termi performed an illegal defuse"
punishment : "warning"
blame : Arbalet Cup Rulebook/Arbalet Cup Referees
punishment : "warning"
blame : Arbalet Cup Rulebook/Arbalet Cup Referees
2010-05-15 02:43:11
WMF broke the rules but they're the better team. They deserve to go next stage.
2010-05-15 03:11:14
you can't tell if wmf is the better team from one match. is eg better than sk?
2010-05-15 03:47:34
well they tied. So I'm not basing my opinion on one match. I just think at most events WMF performs more consistently than EG. Especially now that they have peri helping them I think their chances for success are better than EG who often chokes at BO3.
2010-05-15 13:35:44
how the fuck is that defuse illegal? whoever planted shouldn't have done such a shit plant and it never would have happened?
2010-05-15 03:15:19
dude ,lool
2010-05-15 08:58:03
ZzzZzzz sh1t rule about defusing in the first place... It's more for defusing through floors and such, shouldn't apply in a situation like this where termi was virtually next to the bomb! I just hope a ridiculous rule is not followed up with ridiculous ruling. Admins use their discretion, issue a warning then move on, it's too harsh to forfeit WMF, esp considering that the rulebook isn't clear, in all probability termi would've won the round if defusing in a legal spot, and that the complaint comes from EG who did not even play in the match.
Post edited 2010-05-15 03:48:27
Post edited 2010-05-15 03:48:27
2010-05-15 03:35:56
Lol @ EG's desperately low unsportsmanlike attempt by way of picking on a technicality on someone elses' match. Fact is they only have themselves to blame for not playing well enough, and should take it up the a$$ and go home.
2010-05-15 04:05:59
The fact is that it isn't some minor technicality. That round could have played out completely different if he had defused properly. Since he did it illegally, you have to give the benefit of the doubt to the other team. United might have won that round if he hadn't defused in that spot. It's simple.
termi has only played a few tournaments so he wouldn't know the rules about illegal defusing right? Please... He knows better. A player at his level doesn't need to be doing things like that. Regardless of whether the rules were "easily accessible" or not, most tournaments don't allow this. It's a widely accepted rule at this point.
termi has only played a few tournaments so he wouldn't know the rules about illegal defusing right? Please... He knows better. A player at his level doesn't need to be doing things like that. Regardless of whether the rules were "easily accessible" or not, most tournaments don't allow this. It's a widely accepted rule at this point.
2010-05-15 04:14:54
I agree it's pretty lame of EG to try to get through with a technicality in someone else's match, but if you look at the scenario as in #189 there's no doubt that the illegal defuse created an advantage.
As someone else pointed out as well, termi has been playing in national tournaments for a while and should know what an illegal defuse is.
As someone else pointed out as well, termi has been playing in national tournaments for a while and should know what an illegal defuse is.
2010-05-15 06:03:06
If the rule book is not present online....then how are they supposed to read it before tournament starts??????
Since this is the case i think they dont even deserve a warning ...
Since this is the case i think they dont even deserve a warning ...
2010-05-15 04:06:01
where is it legal to defuse like that?
2010-05-15 04:12:50
I dont remember anybody being warned about such practice ..at least not in the major tournaments(the ones broadcasted on HLTV.org)
... how these guys from the far east are supposed to know that where even the rule book is not present OL ????
... how these guys from the far east are supposed to know that where even the rule book is not present OL ????
2010-05-15 04:48:39
EG knew about it obviously
2010-05-15 05:28:23
Come on guys, its just a game. If you want to talk about exploits, the admin should then ban russian walk altogether. Defusing through the crate should be allowed as long as the defuser is in the bombsite. Can't make it simpler than that right. There's no unfair advantaged to be gain as the CT KNOWS that he is there. They chose not to rush him, and they should pay for their mistake.
2010-05-15 04:20:16
how are they paying for their mistake? they finished 1st in the group. they didn't know he was there. they assumed he would fake because if he wasn't illegal defusing chances are he would hop off of the bomb, but he didn't need to worry about it because he was in the site defusing through the box.
don't get me wrong, we'll never know if he really would have hopped off if he had been defusing correctly, but a majority of the time in that situation you would have hopped off the bomb.
they needed to tie or beat united to advance. they tied. eg is not advancing in the tournament because wmf won this single round that they do not deserve, because he illegally defused the bomb.
personally i think its pretty clear it effected the outcome of the round. if he had defused legally he would have been out in the open and most likely would not have stayed on the bomb when romjke flashed and shot his ak.
don't get me wrong, we'll never know if he really would have hopped off if he had been defusing correctly, but a majority of the time in that situation you would have hopped off the bomb.
they needed to tie or beat united to advance. they tied. eg is not advancing in the tournament because wmf won this single round that they do not deserve, because he illegally defused the bomb.
personally i think its pretty clear it effected the outcome of the round. if he had defused legally he would have been out in the open and most likely would not have stayed on the bomb when romjke flashed and shot his ak.
2010-05-15 04:31:53
dude he was low ..n there was no time ....
2010-05-15 04:50:35
there was plenty of time
2010-05-15 04:52:33
ROMjKE had a flash in his hand. He threw it in and yet he wasn't man enough to even take a look at the bomb plant for any Terrorist. If u tell me he has nothing, and he plans to wait for Termi to stop his fake, I can't say anything. But clearly as a CT, you should not RELY on the RULE BOOKS TO GIVE U AN ADVANTAGE. Your job is to defend and protect the site.
2010-05-15 05:13:38
if this is your thought on competition, we should just allow flash bugs, silent planting, and every other bug/glitch.
its most likely, but 100% certain, that he would have came off the bomb had he been defusing legally on the other side of the box where he would have been out in the open. if everything was 100% fair romjke would have played the situation right and they probably would have won.
again, i'm pretty sure at least 70% of this thread would be completely different had it been a european team instead of an american one.
its most likely, but 100% certain, that he would have came off the bomb had he been defusing legally on the other side of the box where he would have been out in the open. if everything was 100% fair romjke would have played the situation right and they probably would have won.
again, i'm pretty sure at least 70% of this thread would be completely different had it been a european team instead of an american one.
2010-05-15 05:40:18
I say "Should not RELY on the RULE BOOKS TO GIVE U AN ADVANTAGE" not allowing bugs/glitches/exploits. Romejike should not know the exact location where Termi could be defusing the bomb from. The whole point of contention here is not whether Termi would have gotten the defuse or not had he done this or that, but rather, is the act of defusing the bomb through an object legal. Termi was in the bombsite at that time. To be honest, there wasn't any advantage to be gained whatsoever. Are you trying to tell me that Termi knew 100% that Romejike will not peak out so that he could continue to defuse all the way?
2010-05-15 05:54:22
"Romejike should not know the exact location where Termi could be defusing the bomb from"
Actually in that bomb plant spot, there's really only about a three foot half circle in front of the bomb where it's legal to defuse... so yes, if it was a legal defuse he should of known his exact location.
Actually in that bomb plant spot, there's really only about a three foot half circle in front of the bomb where it's legal to defuse... so yes, if it was a legal defuse he should of known his exact location.
2010-05-15 06:08:46
i said this earlier, but here it is again. please read maximiliankohler's post #189.
"ROMjKE did not peek because obviously he assumed that termi was defusing from a legal position and therefore susceptible to his flash and peak.
termi did not get off because he knew that from his(illegal) position ROMjKE would have to run up to kill him and he would have heard his footsteps running. Therefore his illegal defusal position gave him a clear advantage in the situation and the rounds should be overturned."
"ROMjKE did not peek because obviously he assumed that termi was defusing from a legal position and therefore susceptible to his flash and peak.
termi did not get off because he knew that from his(illegal) position ROMjKE would have to run up to kill him and he would have heard his footsteps running. Therefore his illegal defusal position gave him a clear advantage in the situation and the rounds should be overturned."
2010-05-15 06:17:26
ty :)
2010-05-15 06:33:21
You're wrong. Defusing through a solid object or defusing the bomb when you cannot see it is illegal everywhere that I'm aware of. Crouch running has only been illegal in CAL as far as I know... you cannot relate this instance of illegal defuse to crouch running. And as far as ROMJkE knowing he was there, please refer to #189
2010-05-15 05:57:04
Yes he can't see the bomb but still he's in the bombsite. He's not like he's no where to be seen. With regard to ROMjKE, read #232
2010-05-15 06:06:06
You must not be a top player with a stance like that. This game is all about using your brain to determine what the other player is going to do and play the odds. In this scenario, termi cheated to gain an advantage, thus the rounds should be overturned.
I honestly wish it wasn't this way, because I would rather see WMF progress with their new 5th rather then EG getting through because of a technicality like this in another team's game... but in a tournament of this size you have to enforce the rules...
I honestly wish it wasn't this way, because I would rather see WMF progress with their new 5th rather then EG getting through because of a technicality like this in another team's game... but in a tournament of this size you have to enforce the rules...
2010-05-15 06:16:23
If u consider that a cheat, then what about russian walking which screws up the hitboxes? Clearly, defusing through the crate near the box is no where near cheating with russian walking. (Defusing from underneath the bomb is an exploit which gives a huge advantage) And I repeat, the rule book is giving the Terrorist an unfair advantage in this scenario. No one should know the exact location where you are defusing the bomb from. I think this rule should be abolished totally.
2010-05-15 15:40:17
Crouch running isn't illegal in the rule book. Yet defusing through objects is.
2010-05-15 20:08:20
Am I the only one who noticed how beast of a headshot that was? That was rape!
2010-05-15 04:46:15
yeah lol it looked nice ^_^
2010-05-15 06:16:49
Wait for decision!!!!!!!!!!!
2010-05-15 04:57:46
It effected the outcome of the round, but like many people said in most leagues this defuse on inferno is legal. And I bet many players here have done it a few times themselves or had an enemy do this defuse.
2010-05-15 05:01:10
WTF... where is that defuse legal??? It's the complete opposite... it's been ILLEGAL virtually everywhere in every league...
2010-05-15 06:19:51
#226
As far as i know the decision is made and WMF advanced to the next round.
As far as i know the decision is made and WMF advanced to the next round.
2010-05-15 05:05:44
only reason he defused was because he could defuse through the box. if he couldn't he probably wouldn't even bother to try it at once. another thing is that saying united didn't peak so it doesn't matter, I will give an example why this sounds silly. I stole a brand new ipad from the apple store but it doesn't matter because apple store don't even notice it was stolen.
Post edited 2010-05-15 05:07:42
Post edited 2010-05-15 05:07:42
2010-05-15 05:07:02
:)
2010-05-15 05:13:03
The whole point of contention here is not whether Termi would have gotten the defuse or not had he done this or that, but rather, is the act of defusing the bomb through an object legal. Termi was in the bombsite at that time. To be honest, there wasn't any advantage to be gained whatsoever. Are you trying to tell me that Termi knew 100% that Romejike will not peak out so that he could continue to defuse all the way?
2010-05-15 05:27:19
no advantage to be gained? are we playing the same game? please go read #189
"ROMjKE did not peek because obviously he assumed that termi was defusing from a legal position and therefore susceptible to his flash and peak.
termi did not get off because he knew that from his(illegal) position ROMjKE would have to run up to kill him and he would have heard his footsteps running. Therefore his illegal defusal position gave him a clear advantage in the situation and the rounds should be overturned."
"ROMjKE did not peek because obviously he assumed that termi was defusing from a legal position and therefore susceptible to his flash and peak.
termi did not get off because he knew that from his(illegal) position ROMjKE would have to run up to kill him and he would have heard his footsteps running. Therefore his illegal defusal position gave him a clear advantage in the situation and the rounds should be overturned."
2010-05-15 06:09:04
Termi probably knew that as well so in order to increase his chances of defusing, he did it behind the crate. He didn't want to risk peeking outside even though Romejke might not peek. Now whats wrong with that? Its not like he's defusing the bomb from down below the ground or he's nowhere to be seen. He's still in the bombsite period. The rule book is giving the CT an unfair advantage in this scenairo which i think should be abolished. No one should know the exact location where you are defusing the bomb from.
2010-05-15 06:23:42
Well it's currently still in the rule book. Whether or not it's a rule that you personally think is good should not be the factor in deciding whether or not to enforce it. Any dispute of that sort with a rule needs to be argued before the tournament starts, not after it's going to effect teams.
2010-05-15 06:31:24
+1 The rule should never apply to this situation. It was simply good play from termi, poor play from ROMJkE.
2010-05-15 06:34:40
lol...
2010-05-15 06:49:41
rofl .... ? How is the rule giving an unfair advantage! Man if I plant a bomb in front of a box in real life, and you try to defuse through that box, gl hf! The whole point of planting there is to be able to SEE anyone defusing if it ever happens. Otherwise we'd plant the bomb anywhere in the BS and it would be fine. Why not plant the bomb at the back of the site? Cause you can't cover it!
2010-05-15 21:13:22
If you are smart enough, you'll figure it out :D
2010-05-16 12:56:28
it's no advantage when a rule is there to protect you from an abuse. It brings things back to neutral. In this case, being able to see a bomb when you defuse is more than a respectable way of doing it. When's the last time you heard some anti-bomb squad defuse w/o visual contact.
2010-05-16 18:17:22
I would really like to know how many people did not know that this was illegal in arbalet-cup?
I did not, mainly because defusing like this is totally legal in all ESL-Leagues and Tournaments and to be honest i never thought this could be illegal anywhere.
I did not, mainly because defusing like this is totally legal in all ESL-Leagues and Tournaments and to be honest i never thought this could be illegal anywhere.
2010-05-15 05:17:08
did you read the entire news post?
2010-05-15 05:19:18
wow... I didn't know that... that's crazy...
But still, at a tournament this big it's the player's and team's responsibility to know the rules before they start playing...
But I suppose that would be the best argument in favor of WMF if indeed the tournament admins didn't give out the rules or tell the players and teams where they could read them.
But still, at a tournament this big it's the player's and team's responsibility to know the rules before they start playing...
But I suppose that would be the best argument in favor of WMF if indeed the tournament admins didn't give out the rules or tell the players and teams where they could read them.
2010-05-15 06:26:10
Are you sure about ESL?
ESL: gamer.lk/index.php?topic=3630.0;wap2
"It is illegal to defuse the bomb without seeing a piece of it and/or masking the defusal sound by turning on your flashlight while defusing. A penalty of 3 rounds overturned to the other team will occur."
www.hltv.org/?pageid=18&threadid=44155#r794533
ESL: gamer.lk/index.php?topic=3630.0;wap2
"It is illegal to defuse the bomb without seeing a piece of it and/or masking the defusal sound by turning on your flashlight while defusing. A penalty of 3 rounds overturned to the other team will occur."
www.hltv.org/?pageid=18&threadid=44155#r794533
2010-05-15 20:16:58
and that's what approximately 16 teams told me in 2007 at WCG about silent running when the rule was there for 3 years and it was written in the papers they received, on the wcg.com website, on their national wcg website (in their own language) and on a big board of paper when you were getting inside the players area (and trust me, the writing was bigger than you). People say what they have to say to get away with stuff like that, don't be naive!
2010-05-15 21:15:28
Actually many facts that are described in rules (correct bomb defusing, correct settings, etc) can be just easily controlled by plugin. And I don't understand why such big events as WCG, ESWC, Arbalet prefer say players "don't you guys dare to difuse through the wall" insted of just restricting it
2010-05-15 05:30:53
I agree.
2010-05-15 06:26:59
just remeber n!faculty defuse against hoorai on de_nuke from B to A. its normal defuse from termi! if romjke dont check its his fail. I dont see the problem!
Post edited 2010-05-15 06:25:16
Post edited 2010-05-15 06:25:16
2010-05-15 06:24:52
if wmf gets the forfeit loss then eg still doesnt advance because wmf will have bigger round difference also this wont be who won in heads up match because they tied so wmf is still victorious
Post edited 2010-05-15 06:59:54
Post edited 2010-05-15 06:59:54
2010-05-15 06:57:29
Incorrect. EG(+4) > WMF(+2) > UNiTED(+0) in terms of round difference, assuming the original round scores are unchanged and WMF simply lost the 1 point they gained from the draw as a result of their forfeit loss.
But UNiTED beat EG in the head to head, and is also assumed to have beaten WMF after the forfeit loss result, hence they will go through top of the group. As for EG and WMF, EG has superior round difference and will go through as second.
But UNiTED beat EG in the head to head, and is also assumed to have beaten WMF after the forfeit loss result, hence they will go through top of the group. As for EG and WMF, EG has superior round difference and will go through as second.
2010-05-15 07:31:22
But is that round difference really fair when SK just immediately left after their loss?
2010-05-15 07:38:05
Good point, it's probably not fair haha, but I'm just basing it off the results as they stand at the moment *shrugs*
2010-05-15 07:41:19
GG EG FAILS, they can't admit their defeat so they try and look for a lame cheap way out.
2010-05-15 06:58:19
How would romjke know termi was doing an illegal defuse ? Anyway, he will peek to kill termi, he must know that Koreans defuse bomb rather than fake mostly.
2010-05-15 08:39:53
No professionalism on SK's part... should have played the remaining rounds ...
2010-05-15 08:42:15
ROMJkE not even checked the spot so there's nothing illegal
2010-05-15 08:55:46
How come whether romjke checked the spot or didnt decides that its legal or not? termi BROKE THE RULE and must be punished or at least warned, REGARDLESS THE OUTCOME OF THE ROUND. There are several examples here showing that the outcome doesnt matter if the rule was broken.
In normal civilized world you get punished for even attempting to commit a crime.
In normal civilized world you get punished for even attempting to commit a crime.
2010-05-15 09:54:41
The only logical reason for him to even go to that specific position is to hold the defuse, it's pretty obvious he would not have fully defused from the "normal" position if you really think about it.
He's obviously thinking that he can't hold the defuse from the normal position, and therefor goes for a safer one, that might work.
And everyone saying "EG are loosers, take the loss like men" blabla, are you really that stupid? there's ALOT of money on the line, and rules are MADE to be obeyed, they are not there to be broken. It's the same as commiting a felony, you should be punished.
In theory, EG are witnesses to cheating, and it's their duty to report it, the same way it would be if they had witnessed a crime.
It really pisses me off that alot of people within the e-sports scene are whining about professionalism beeing the missing link, and then when someone (EG in this case) is trying to promote that, people are all of a sudden children at the age of 11, instead of professionals.
And yes, i do realize that EG are probably doing this for their own benefit, and not the scene itself, but my point is still valid. Beeing a professional means following the rules.
Post edited 2010-05-15 09:26:04
He's obviously thinking that he can't hold the defuse from the normal position, and therefor goes for a safer one, that might work.
And everyone saying "EG are loosers, take the loss like men" blabla, are you really that stupid? there's ALOT of money on the line, and rules are MADE to be obeyed, they are not there to be broken. It's the same as commiting a felony, you should be punished.
In theory, EG are witnesses to cheating, and it's their duty to report it, the same way it would be if they had witnessed a crime.
It really pisses me off that alot of people within the e-sports scene are whining about professionalism beeing the missing link, and then when someone (EG in this case) is trying to promote that, people are all of a sudden children at the age of 11, instead of professionals.
And yes, i do realize that EG are probably doing this for their own benefit, and not the scene itself, but my point is still valid. Beeing a professional means following the rules.
Post edited 2010-05-15 09:26:04
2010-05-15 09:14:17
I have to agree. Because he is in a safe posistion he don`t even have to think about stopping the defuse.
Take this situation into a sport event. The rule will be like this. It`s okay to dope if your opponent did not see you take the dope..
Take this situation into a sport event. The rule will be like this. It`s okay to dope if your opponent did not see you take the dope..
2010-05-15 11:28:22
Answer my question. Do you use russian walk? Do you think you are being professional by exploiting this bug if you do use it?
2010-05-15 15:49:16
as long as their is no rule against it it's ok. This is why WCG 2007 was a big mess because players WANTED to do it even if they KNEW they weren't allowed. Rule is gone now so it's okay if people do it and everyone accept it.
However, on an ethical point of view, russian-walk is in no way legit.
However, on an ethical point of view, russian-walk is in no way legit.
2010-05-15 21:21:47
I don't play counter-strike anymore, and i quit right about the time when russian-walk was coming on to the scene.
But that is a totally different topic, i do however think that russian-walk also is kind of questionable.
But seeing as this matter has been resolved years ago, i do not really see what you're getting at by your comment.
And i also did not in any way say that i am more professional than anyone else, im just saying that i see some of the same people whining about EG that previous to this event have said that professionalism is needed for the e-sport scene to grow. Which i find kind of hypocritical.
Post edited 2010-05-19 05:50:53
But that is a totally different topic, i do however think that russian-walk also is kind of questionable.
But seeing as this matter has been resolved years ago, i do not really see what you're getting at by your comment.
And i also did not in any way say that i am more professional than anyone else, im just saying that i see some of the same people whining about EG that previous to this event have said that professionalism is needed for the e-sport scene to grow. Which i find kind of hypocritical.
Post edited 2010-05-19 05:50:53
2010-05-19 05:45:41
Firstly, nice reading and very interesting point of view... In my opinion, EG is definitely right thanks to the rules of the tournament, but on the other side, if termi defused from available position, EG players would NEVER know it!
Really, I wouldn't want to be admin right now and I'm very interested in result of whole situation...
Really, I wouldn't want to be admin right now and I'm very interested in result of whole situation...
2010-05-15 09:47:52
Wouldn't mind knowing asap if EG are playing or wMF are so I can edit my dreamteam >.>
2010-05-15 09:50:04
OwnEd...
2010-05-15 10:00:00
This should be legal just like in some other tournamnets.....stupid rules really.
2010-05-15 10:02:47
WMF should be punished imo. As noted above, if termi hadnt had the chance to bugdefuse ( i mean i there wasnt such bug in inferno ) then he may have acted differently ( fakedef or what ever ) This bug just made it easier to him and he used it. It didnt affect United-s game and thoughts but it did affect wmf-s because without the bug we cant know what termi would have done.
2010-05-15 11:12:40
Can't really see what that isn't allowed? Just an silly rule in my opinion..
2010-05-15 11:28:39
some people say that if termi was in an appropriate position, jhe would have faked the defuse...so if termi was in a legal position, he wouldn't have done that and would have faked to defuse? how could you know it? just be realistic, either UNiTED didnt play the round properly, either they wanted WMF to win the round in order to eliminate EG, and that's what happen when you behave like a stupid child in every tournament you attend (IEM really pissed me off) :)
2010-05-15 11:48:21
to ban defusing through texture is the same thing, like to ban shooting through walls. it actually doesn't matters if he went out to check or not. he needed to think about how enemy can defuse it, but not about his ass.
sry 4 bad EN
sry 4 bad EN
2010-05-15 11:50:12
That was allowed.So ,ROMJkE didint check
the bombdefuse.
Post edited 2010-05-15 12:05:56
the bombdefuse.
Post edited 2010-05-15 12:05:56
2010-05-15 12:05:34
i think that rules are rules, though romjke not see. is illegal
2010-05-15 16:30:29
I had to register just to make a point for WMF.
there were more than 1 players remaining for United
It was 1v2, 1v3 or whatever against termi. If I was termi and if anyone of you was, you know you are already outnumbered so chance of winning a shootout is low while going for defuse would be the smarter choice.
Did termi drop from apt because he knew he could illegal defuse it? Probably not, it is not guaranteed that the bomb was planted right there. If the bomb was planted even a bit to the right, he wouldnt have been able to defuse it as he did
there were more than 1 players remaining for United
It was 1v2, 1v3 or whatever against termi. If I was termi and if anyone of you was, you know you are already outnumbered so chance of winning a shootout is low while going for defuse would be the smarter choice.
Did termi drop from apt because he knew he could illegal defuse it? Probably not, it is not guaranteed that the bomb was planted right there. If the bomb was planted even a bit to the right, he wouldnt have been able to defuse it as he did
2010-05-16 07:23:09
1 - termi performed an illegal defuse;
2 - if termi had defused from a legal position, it would not have affected the outcome of the round, as romjke did not peek.
Weird way of looking at it imo. As in the situation being discussed, romjke would have to make a decision not based on his own skill, but to make sure the other team isn't breaking the rules. Just state that if a player is breaking a rule, his team looses a round or whatever, no matter if the action is effecting the game or not. Even if one breaking a rule leads to better results for the opponents, the violation should effect the team of the player.
2 - if termi had defused from a legal position, it would not have affected the outcome of the round, as romjke did not peek.
Weird way of looking at it imo. As in the situation being discussed, romjke would have to make a decision not based on his own skill, but to make sure the other team isn't breaking the rules. Just state that if a player is breaking a rule, his team looses a round or whatever, no matter if the action is effecting the game or not. Even if one breaking a rule leads to better results for the opponents, the violation should effect the team of the player.
2010-05-19 03:07:12
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