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Alright so, who's the pro? Correct, Zeus.
You can't just become a pro by being smart.
Is he a bot? Globals and faceit lvl 10s would struggle more.
Thorin is a gold nova 2, Zeus is a major champion. Zeus a bot? Zeus is hot.
I am not a navi fan but Thorin needs to shut these 2 gold nova stars up his ass and get away from games.
True but still, it's not the first time he goes on about players.
Probably more than 10 actually.
Probably more than 100 actually
i wonder how he is stil so popular and respected by the organizers.
pure shit.
Cause he has and retains more esports knowledge than pretty much everyone
Its undeniable. He knows the history of esports very well, he brings a lot of trivia type knowledge to the desk and is good at breaking down pros and cons of matchups. He may be an ass but these are the reasons why you keep seeing him.
People like you have a problem differentiating personality and talent.
I never said he should be on the desk over any of these analysts you're referring to just that he has a lot of knowledge about all esports including cs:go and is also very good at conveying his points in speech.
Yes hes a great interviewer asks hard questions
Yes I realize he can do research beforehand and he does, that doesnt change the fact that he is very knowledgable about esports and is able to recall a lot of events, scenarios, and matches that most people WOULD have to look up but he instead retains a lot of it.
if his baits were low quality you and millions of others wouldnt fall for them so easily lmao
Id reck zeus
Thorin doesn't understand that being a Pro (especially IGL) requires more than aim
Zeus is too stupid to understand Thorin exclusivly talks about his fragging, not his leader qualities and gets upset
>both idiots
Yes, Zeus does what he wanted.
thorin just provokates pros to get more attention thats it
Thorin didn't @ zeus though, Zeus came of his own accord. Its like you saying that Zeus is a bot on reddit, then Zeus gets on his reddit account and replies to you. Did you provoke him?
Thorin is a baiter but he wasn't baiting Zeus. His baits normally consist of shoehorning in a Brazilian joke in the most cringe, inappropriate way possible
Theres some guy named IamFish who translates his tweets to english. But the Fish guy said that he translated it from the mouth of Zeus to twitter.
+1
he did "great leadership... but what a bot".
thorin didnt say just that hes a bot. he said he is a great igl but individually a bot, which is right compared to other players
Karrigan is far better.
That shouldn't even be part of the equation.
Aside from a bo3 here or there where he shits the bed, he's a fairly decent fragger for Faze most times.
Anyone who has watched Navi at all in the last year shouldn't need stats to see that Zeus is a really bad fragger.
youtube.com/watch?v=VllS31unXyc
bad humour?
Show me someone who can go on a rant like this..
this is g0ld
everyone says that thoorin is irrelevant yet there are at least 2 threads about him almost every day
I guess you are suffering from amnesia?
you wish he couldnt get booked for events lol
Kind of a stupid comment considering he was just on the desk at Cologne 4Head
wow 1 tier1 event in one year.
good for thorin.
you know that last year he almoat didnt attend 1 tournament and this year hes relevant again
I completely agree with you. Thoorin only needs media and attention, trash commentator and useless in scenary
use your brain, all 5 players played insane + they played final vs immortals, c9 won a major and after 1 week they were ,,shit team" again, that was same with Gambit (not about igl at all)
btw. i just said most of the ppl dont know how much S1mple, coach and edward helps him with strats and mid round calls
Its not just about the major. Gambit were a constantly improving team and a serious threat to the top teams any given day since Zeus joined that team. He nurtured those guys into a good team. As soon as he left - they literally took a 180 degree turn. Navi was absolute shit the entirety of 2017 and look at them now. Can't be a coincidence that him joining Gambit made them good, him leaving Gambit made them bad again and him joining Navi made them good again. Before S1mple joined Navi, they were such a good team that always managed to get into the important finals but instead of trying to resolve the issues they got rid of him and added more firepower. And we all know how it turned out for them in the end. So my friend, there cannot be so many coincidences altogether
Let's not exaggerate now. It took them 4 months to get back in shape (2 while seized was still there and 2 where they brought in electronic) that too with one roster change which obviously takes a little time to settle in with a new player coming on the team, trying to adjust. Even Astralis took couple of months to be the best after they got Magisk on the team. Navi has been very consistent since the beginning of this year, right from the Boston Major - they've already been consistent for straight six months now. All the events they've attended, saw them at least in the semis or the finals or win the tournament.
To answer your other question. if you think Starix had more impact than Zeus as a coach, why is it that they started sucking dicks after he left? Starix was still there, that too with more firepower on the team so technically they should have been amazing right? THEY JUST REPLACED ZEUS WITH SIMPLE. What an upgrade that should have been!! But happened? They were ABSOLUTE SHIT for an entire year.
You talk about coaches not getting enough credit? You can even give credit to their IGL which he clearly deserves, forget the coaches man.
Well "decent placing at large events" is a vague term, most people think different about it. I looked at consistent top 4 placings (which i think are the minimum goals of a team with such a roster) and only at big events (excludes DH Open Winter for example) which started consistently at the boston major, then continued at star ladder in february, but anyway its not that important to argue about that.
My post maybe sounded more critically about Zeus than it was intended. I DO give Zeus credit. Obviously starix alone couldnt do anything with NAVI when Zeus left, because there just was no proper IGL at all.
But I do think that most good IGLs work that good, because they synergize very well with their coach. Like 50/50. You take Zeus away again, and NAVI will struggle, but if you take only Kane away, NAVI will struggle too for at least a while until a new good coach is found.
And then what happened? No relevant results for straight 12 months? ESL New York wasn't even a stacked tournament - Only 8 teams and that too with teams like G2, Fnatic, Astralis who were struggling at the time with form, liquid who just lost simple to Navi and replaced him with Pimp. Don't get me wrong, I like pimp but he is nowhere near the caliber of a player like S1mple. People often joke/complain about the c9 Major being a fluke. Well, ESL NY 2016 had only 8 teams out of which only VP were in good shape at that time.
How doesn't it make any sense? or what do you mean
But when he's a gold nova, he obviously doesn't have the aim to say that "zeus is a bot".
Except for if he called himself an even worse bot who can't play at all
he doesn't have to say anything about himself. you don't need amazing aim to see if someone has poor aim.
All you need is an understanding of the game (which he has).
/*
A chess commentator doesn't need to be a grand master to understand chess and make comments about a certain players performance.
*/
I don't get you, are you just a thorin fan or what?
Thorin is shit and is mostly just talking about players n shit when he knows nothing about their situation and so on.
+1
zeus > edward
well, it all comes down to opinion
By far? Gob_b is abysmal mechanically.
BIG is by far worse than navi. they had a good run but will play bad again in the future
I never said otherwise.
yeah but thats why zeus has to perform much better than gob b
That's kind of an irrelevant argument. MSL and Karrigan aren't much better than Zeus. An IGL that has good mechanics is obviously a plus, but you don't need all 5 players positive to win games.
aimwise (or however its spelled) not, but zeus' decisiontaking as a individual is actually bad af for a igl. he makes a lot of stupid decisions
A lot of IGLs make bad decisions as individuals. There's been enough discussion about why when you read interviews from the pros who swap into the role.
Zeus is overrated. His "calls and reads" are just overrated cause whatever he does there will be simple, electronic and flamie to win the aim-duels most of the time. Zeus has 0-impact on any of their tournament wins. And btw. his mechanics are even topped by some lvl5 faceit goofs
>they won because of "mastermind zeus"
>they won because hobbit and adreN were stepping up big time.
pick one
also if mou doesnt have the game of his carrier against astralis in the first map,they lose 2-0 in the semis
yeah and a team is composed out of two players. the sum is greater than the addition of the parts or something.
It seems strange to me that Navi fell into near obscurity as soon as Zeus left, and Gambit began to improve as he joined, and then the opposite happened when he left Gambit and joined Navi.
Both Gambit and Navi suffered from not having a decent IGL. I don't even know why it's a debate, Zeus is like any other long-standing IGL. He's not a great fragger, but he leads the team properly, which a lot of people take for granted.
I just think it's extremely unfair to think that an IGL has to be a great fragger to be instrumental in wins. Stats don't tell us everything, impact rating on HLTV can't account for the calls being made to the team.
There's so much evidence that points to the success good teams have with the right leader ahead of them. Not every player has to be a star, because it's a team game, and you can't just share the frags. I will take a guy who dies for his team's win every single time over the guy who rushes in and tries to get a kill without any back up or trade potential.
Couldn't have agreed more. And not just in-game, these leaders have a huge impact on the team and these players outside the game as well, overall. Which obviously we won't know and won't be able to see as outsiders. Leadership is also about building that good environment in the team, the positive vibes, synergy, motivation and a lot more. People just don't see all these things which to me are even more important than having a lineup of stars on your team. With the right leader, even a team with only decent players can do wonders and on the contrary a star studded lineup can become a failure without proper direction.
go blow each other....
tldr overall. but zeus still sucks.
Have a good day.
I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings lil guy.
C9 still had tarik and skadoodle and dropped off aswell. It was their peak performance back at the respective majors - after that, they returned to theri "normal" performance. As simple as that
Right and that explains Navis clear upward trend after Zues joined back
"major impact" he had one game where he was playing decently, in the other games he had his bot ass be carried by simple and electronic.
Stop posting.
Please.
you went waaay too far when you mentioned lvl 5 faceit goofs
thorin needs to stay relevant so he starts trashtalking emotional pro's like zeus but with a pretty low backlash in comparison to f.e. s1mple.
thorin is pretty smart he knows what he got and what he doesn't have. right now he's banking on his relative fame in the e-sports community.
he was a nice desk person (was about to say analyst ROFL) but he knows the next asshat who says politically incorrect stuff and does impulsive shit like smacking a baguette will simply replace him.
he doesn't know shit about the game, imo if he's really smart he should save what's left of his reputation and become event staff or smth, you know, a real job. he does know a lot about the scene and there surely are people who want to listen to his ranting, just journalism is such a clickbait job nowadays so he needs to trigger pro's into relevance.
fair point
he is still right tho lmao
But Zeus is like 100 times better than Thorin at CS:GO, aim and brain wise.
guess seangares or spunj never criticize a pro for having a bad game then...
Both are former pros, they know what it is like. And they can actually spot the mistakes cause both were IGLs I believe.
Thorin is more like a storyteller on the analysis desk,former pros can analyse rounds,he is good at making context and storylines for players and teams,he also knows a lot about the esports and cs scene in general,going back to 1.6.And some banter ofc.
Not everyone has o analyse rounds like "this strat was so good this round was very important etc"
Still it's more his tweets that piss me off.
i agree,he tweets retarded shit a lot of times,he is really trying to be edgy or something
What about analysts that have never played the game at a pro level? Or coaches? If you study the game enough, or efficiently, you can be smarter than people who play the game every day on the biggest stages. Not saying thats what Thorin does, but the possibility for people who arent pros to be analytically smarter than pros is there
But he doesn't have the experience with being in the game like the pros does, and of course there are some smarter people who aren't but Thorin is definately not one of them. He tries to be one, but he is not.
Fair
I think this statement is largely speculative and misleading. Learning the correct moves through experience is something that comes with practice, and isn't something that you can just analyze and talk about after the fact.
If hindsight is 50/50, we're all smarter than the people making the calls because we, as spectators, can see the mistakes when they can't (or at least, we can see the incorrect moves being made because of things like the mini-map). The limited amount of information that is given to a leader is vastly inferior to that of a spectator, and I think it's unfair to say someone who is watching with all of the information can make better judgments than someone who is playing with half a deck.
We can also learn the correct moves to make BEFORE the mistakes are made if we see enough times the moves that are made before the mistake occurs. It won't ALWAYS be the case but there will be situations where the leader makes a move, and spectators can foresee the mistake before it occurs. Like opting to push through the B dildo smoke on Overpass, you dont need to know there are four players on the site, because with even two players on the site, that probably won't end well.
Being an IGL requires managing risk, and sometimes a leader will call a risky play, like the one you mentioned, purely for the purpose of catching another team off-guard. We, as spectators, might condemn such a call if it fails because we had the information, but were it to succeed the opposite is also true.
It's fair to say that you can understand fundamental mistakes by watching as a spectator. I've seen numerous instances of pros making terrible decisions during retakes/post-plants that they should know not to do, with or without information to tell them otherwise.
But with that said, what you're talking about is essentially hindsight. You can't always play it safe in a match, because sometimes that's what's hindering you from overtaking another team.
You're not entirely wrong, obviously. There are certain kinds of calls that don't make a lot of sense, but we also don't know what the actual reasoning was behind that call. A leader does his best to understand what he's been given and turn that into a proper avenue for success. If a player communicates information incorrectly, it could lead to the scenario you're talking about. We can't presume to know all of those decisions without being there in the first place.
Fair points
EDIT: I probably shouldnt have said correct either because there are no wrong or right moves, just ones that work and ones that dont.
Yeah, that's pretty true. I mean, I do think sometimes there are pretty clear right and wrong situations, but they're often very specific. Largely I agree with that though, because what might work in some cases may not work in others.
+1 good read both of you
So what? You're saying unless you're a pro then your opinion is completely irrelevant on anything regarding the game? If so that's idiotic.
I think it's fair to say that opinions aren't irrelevant, but may certainly be misinformed. Opinions obviously aren't facts, but anyone with any real world experience in something is going to have a stronger foundation of understanding than someone without. It's fair to consider these kinds of things in the context to which they are given.
Chill and I agree with #84.
The opinions are most likely irrelevant, facts aren't.
Thorins is mostly just opinions cause he's eh.. a special snowflake in category 0/8 bait.
By Zeus being smarter and have a better aim, he's an IGL and he does all that so it's in game and game wise where he is smarter. Thorin maybe is smarter about different and other things.
are you actually briandead?! this is the job of journalists and analyst. not only in csgo. what do you think happened after germany lost against south korea?!
lol don't even get me started on commentators, i know they are mostly kind of like this but thorin is on another level. control your word usage. "briandead" yeah sure brian is dead.
it makes no fcking difference if you are worse than sb, you are still allowed to critizice him...
and who tf takes his tweetes serious..
well you do since you're freaking out about it. "who even takes hltv serious", ask yourself that and then look at all us retards here including yourself.
and? cry more about him
lol cry more about this thread germanski. when you can't keep up a discussion and pull up the cry nt nt
i made my point thats all I wanted. cant stand people crying cause of every thorin tweet
you didn't make any point? commentators and casters/journalists for other real life sports and some esports are different from Thorin.
Thorin fan confirmed? You go home, disgusting.
they use different words but thats all, they mean the same..
and thorin was right with this tweet, zeus is a bot compared to other pros
and you're a bot compared to any pro. and maybe his "aim" lacks a bit, but his brain doesn't when it comes to understanding the game. Which in some cases is better than aim. And maybe Thorin is more direct yes, but that's to get some attention on his ass.
but thats what he also said. he said that he is a great igl
No one is claiming that zues is a bad player, just that he is poor mechanically. Obviously he sacrifices his own skill to focus on strats and tactics instead of aim servers no one is denying that. Not sure why you cant accept that zues is an amazing leader but a poor mechanical player, it's the truth.
It's Zeus not "Zues" and please, see if you can do it any better in game against proffesionals. He's not a pro, just cause of his brain/tactics. Not the first time I've said it and most likely not the last time. He focuses on tactics and strats etc over his aim yes, but he is not a "poor" or "bad" player.
You're right hes not a poor or bad player that's exactly what I said. Theres many different types of players and what he lacks in raw skill he makes up in leadership and tactics.
" see if you can do it any better in game against proffesionals"
In the context of the pro scene he has worse mechanical skill than most players at his level so yes he is "poor" in that respect however he clearly makes up for that as seen by his 3 recent titles and his major win.
thorin's logic is that you don't need to be a pro to be able to judge the quality of a team in the same way you don't need to be a musician to tell what good music is
He did that to kng and now is trying to bait Zeus
To bad Zeus won't fall for his shit baits
Zues is hot? Guy looks like a walking slavic miscarriage
Not by his looks but his way of leading and playing lol
All GB humans are so stupid
how's your precious Kosovo doing fuckface?
macedonian brother starter trashtalking((( so sad to see this
70% of IGLeaders are bad fraggers. Just deal with it and stop crying.
lmao karrygan much worse lmo.
Not even close lol
hltv.org/stats/players/compare/484/Zeus/..
Impact rating haha
both are right
zeus is shit and is getting hard carried by the two best players in the world right now
and thorin is just a stupid attention whore
Google Chrome? Firefox?
thorin doesnt even play cs mind you. zeus is fucking terrible compared to every other player that plays at navi level. he would struggle on a tier 4 team individually wise.
ive seen that? your point? he still doesnt play
Well that proves he does play? He doesn't play proffesionally (obviously lol) but he plays CS:GO. Maybe not as much as some of us HLTV fucks but still, can't say he doesn't play when that should be proof enough of him playing.
i bet in the last 2 years he has no more than 100 hours of play time, not including demo watching etc
Well, Thorins steam is private so we can't see such rip.
u only have to watch those streams where he was playing to know he definitely isn't playing much, if at all. he got that rank ON stream mind you, wasnt like he was grinding out nova for months.
why you hype zeus so much, are you fucking blind on both eyes??
zeus has a crosshair placement of a mm dmg and aims literally like someone who haven't played this game for months, maybe he is having some kind of leading qualities that a team like navi (or gambit in the past) needs but let's be honest, if s1mple and electronic would not drop 30+ bombs every match then they would fail like gambit does now because edward, flamie and zeus dragging this team down like an anchor
Of course, but would you perform better as a rifler than he is doing as an IGL? I highly dilly doubt so. He's a pro for more than one reason, not just is IGL'ing.
Well G2 Just got together pretty much. I believe in them though, not sure with bodyy but the rest is what I wanted on G2 to fix it. I think they can come to the top five again but first.. I want to see C9 get out of this slump and fix themselves :(.
I just realized, FNS is a worse fragger than Zeus lol
wait what?! better team?! navi >>> g2
smithzz is bad af, even worse than zeus
While I'm usually annoyed by most of Thorin's "Banter" he isn't wrong. Until recently S1mple wasn't enough to carry them to title wins. We have entered a meta where even your IGL needs to be able to post solid numbers. Zues wasn't doing that. He was a damn bot. Thankfully, now Electronic is there to pick his slack.
S1mple back pains ye.. But IGLs do not need to heavily frag all the time, they need to be there of course but not needed up carrying 24/7. I can't really think of anyone who was bad aim wise except for Seized & Zeus who also was an IGL hmm.
Yeah exactly. But Zues wasn't even putting up alright numbers. He was pulling a Neo. Just out right giving kills to the enemy. You couldn't rely on him to even hold CT angles against a single T. Thankfully he's looked a little more solid. But taking Electronic off support has definitely allowed the team to pick up Zues' lack of firepower.
Yeah I guess it could be the same case for some IGLs. They have their star players to perform for them instead.
I guess I can't complain if a Dictator is burning down my village and killing children in my country because I'm not in a place of Political power...
Such a dip shit statement. He is a great IGL at times but individually when compared with his fellow pros, he just isn't as good. 0.97 rating at the end of that tournament btw.
Well if you complained about living in a dictatorship you most likely would be executed...
I know. No need for such.
Also hey, at least he's better than Hunden.
Zeus acted like 20iq little kid tbh. Fall for such a bait. And btw Thorin was right in some sense, Zeus is Godlike IGL, but he is bad as a player lately.
Zeus must just ignore this tweet and move on to his future titles. Instead of crying like a kid and turning ON "agression mode".
I think despite the fact that Zeus is 30 years old and he travels a lot, he is still so childish.
Zeus is Godlike IGL, but he is bad as a player lately.
Zeus did not undestand that, made some bs response.
Thorin sticks to proper analysis and facts, if you can't handle the truth, delete your twitter, lmao.
+ thorin - zeus, thorin makes his job journalism, counter strike players should be go with it its a sport and to make it more popular. you have to be allowed to make your job. and when a grown man like zeus can not take critics like a men he is a pussy
+1
Thorin = Most popular UK baiter
Thorin has made a career out of being a fucking cunt. Stop giving him the attention he craves.
You don't need to be a football player to say if some player plays bad.
Zeus just got mad for being called a bot, but his argument that you can't rate pros if you're not a pro is bullshit.
Gold nova 2 is the new global / lvl 10 faceit
Zeus always drops his rifle to s1mple and acts as a bait for his teammates to get kills. In addition he is the mastermind and godlike IGL of the team.
Thorin doesn't understand at all how the team works. Zeus shouldn't ever get 30 bomb, he is trying to enable s1mple and electronic get the 30 bombs.
+964728
Thorin who?I only know Zeus
This says it all youtube.com/watch?v=z8I62OoNO5M