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18+ tag to hopefully promote decent conversation
Hong Kong has had schools cancelled since last Wednesday and is expected to close schools tomorrow as well.
Good job, protesters.
What people don't seem to realise is when you beat up people simply for speaking mandarin in public, light people on fire, vandalise public property (not to mention private businesses) and paralyse a city, you are not fighting for any virtuous freedom, instead the freedom to trample the freedoms of others. In claiming to protect freedom of speech, people now feel frightened to speak Mandarin in crowded public places.
Social media platforms seem to portray Hong Kong as standing in 100% solitude against the big bad CCP police force infiltrating the city. How dumb do you have to be to believe this? Do people think everyone in HK likes it when these masked cowards vandalise MTR stations and cause citywide paralysis? The economy in HK is going to shit, soon China will deem Hong Kong disposable enough to actually bring in the PLA, and then you are truly fucked aren't you...
Watching the parents of the children trapped in PolyU cry out in pain, asking for the captured to be treated with compassion makes me cringe. As parents, if you allow your child to attend these radical, violent proceedings, you have failed as a parent and as a member of society. If you play stupid games, you win stupid prizes. Best solution is to stop the violence and have protest leaders come to an agreement with the HK government.
People get a bit mad when they get put in concentration camps
You tend to be put in concentration camps when you foolishly dissent against a government which you are powerless against. What are you going to do, nuke the CCP? I don't like China either I think they should GTFO, but what are you going to do?
What point are you even trying to make?
My point is that no one in the world has the power to displace the CCP and their methods without using force which will result in mutually assured destruction. The more people get angry now and resort to violence as their momentary catharsis against the big bad Chinese, the more China will make their lives even worse when 2047 comes around.
Of course no one wants to have their freedoms trampled, I think we can agree on that. But since the extradition bill - the actual looming threat which was rightfully protested against -was not just shelved but cancelled, I think the best option for the Hong Kong protesters to take is to come to a diplomatic agreement with the government. No more violence
What is this autistic logic? Don't fight for your rights because the odds are against you?
Don't paint it as something with odds, like there is a chance of success whatsoever. Because realistically, both you and I know there is 0 chance of Hong Kong achieving any sort of autonomy. At this rate, I don't think anyone even knows what the protesters are fighting for now that the extradition bill was cancelled.
The more you fight for something which you will NEVER achieve, the more you will suffer when China actually DOES take control of China in 2047. The solution? Stop the bleeding and stop vandalising shit and paralysing the city. How is that autistic logic?
No such thing as 0 chance
You tell me the conditions under which China will turn into a free democratic state, AND allowing Hong Kong to secede - especially seeing the struggle Taiwan is undergoing right now?
Me disagreeing with your stance that there is no solution = me knowing a solution??????
Use your brain m8
When you say that there is a chance, the burden of proof - even if hypothetical - is on you
It is possible that the ccp quantum tunnels into the sun tomorrow morning, happy?
Well, that wouldn't be as outlandish as the CCP relinquishing power over what they believe is rightfully theirs
Nice sarcasm except you're not even arguing against anything I said
Many radical protesters in Hong Kong are arguing for, amongst other things, autonomy, free elections, etc.
Unfortunately, China will never allow these things to happen. It's not like I'm being pessimistic. It's good that we both agree on that.
Since these protesters are effectively ravaging the city for a cause which is unattainable, I'm arguing that the radicals in the city must stop before they give the CCP an excuse to actually restrict ALL of their freedoms in 2047.
idk how you can know such a precise probability in 2047, china could collapse before then
Because 2047 is the handover date when Hong Kong relinquishes the "One Country, Two Systems" deal and truly becomes a part of China.
The leadership positions in China (I'm talking about high, high levels of government) are quite fortified, and any hint of revolution in China is always quashed - to insinuate that China would collapse would require an economic collapse. China makes up 15.5% of the global economy, and the USA makes up 23.3%. I don't think a collapse is coming any time soon, especially considering America's anti-globalist outlook and China's expanding outreach
exactly... as an example have you seen how retarded their housing market is?
No, care to explain?
Search up about the ghost cities on youtube to see what i'm talking about, ADVChina is a good channel to watch. They just shit out buildings because the rich collect government subsidies just for owning them. The demand for housing is in freefall yet the price keeps getting artificially pushed up - this doesnt match supply and demand and has created a pretty nasty bubble that has to pop eventually just like the american housing market in 2008.
Will the economy recover and the ccp maintain power? Maybe but who knows, I'm just waiting for that bubble to pop lmao
If this is true (I'll read into this, thank you), I still doubt that the resulting collapse of the Chinese economy would get to the point where the CCP will be overthrown. The majority of the Chinese economy is still comprised of exports.
That's a perfectly reasonable doubt but I still believe you should fight for your freedoms even if the chances are low
I completely understand that, but I believe that the non-violent alternative is much preferable to what they are doing right now.
Protesting is as old as civilization. Every continent except for Antarctica has experienced all levels of protest and riots in order to make changes within their government.
People throughout the world want freedom and liberty and they're willing to fight until they achieve it.
"Both you and I know there is 0 chance of Hong Kong achieving any sort of autonomy"
this statement simply doesn't register within their minds and they're going to do whatever it takes in order to achieve their goals...
Civil rights, anti-war, and judicial protests have occurred in China, the US, Russia, the Soviet Union, SE Asia, European countries, African countries, etc. in varying levels of intensity. History teaches us that people are more than willing to die for what they're fighting for
You fight against it, dying as a freeman is better than living as a slave, you think you will get a somewhat decent life under China??? pffff you got a taste of freedom but it seems like you took it for granted, your life will be an absolute torture.
Move to China if you want to live like China, you seem to hate people taking freedom for what it is, the most valuable thing humans can have....all im saying is that you should live what you preach brother.
people get a bit mad when terrorists blow shit up killing innocents. coincidence that no terrorist activities happened since education camps started?
idk what ur talking about lmao
He's referring to the Xinjiang population in and around Western China (Tibet area etc.) and their attitudes towards Han Chinese
how come u know about these "concentration" camps but dont know about the terrorists due to which these education camps were introduced?
Because you didn't say that. You introduced "terrorists" without saying which ones
AHAHAHAHAHA ebat ti vatnik
Russia did same work in Chechnya in 1994 , we need new democracy state for HK , and over 30 republics in russia
No source of it, no buying it. Dont give me random twitter shit or some 'satelite photo' as trusted source.
Basically you are free to type down 'concentration camp' however you want, but most time when I start questioning the source of it, people nither refuse to provide it, or start personal attack on me. LOL.
Ok but almost everyone else thinks they exist so why would I even bother to respond to this other than to write what I just said?
Maybe you don't know how to tell what is propaganda because it's all you've ever known
One way of knowing what is propaganda and what's not, is to actually see it yourself and to use logic to separate fact from lies. I am studying in an American university, and I can tell you that NEITHER Chinese nor western media is honest. Some reports Made by NYT, Bloomberg, etc, have even twisted the translation of Chinese language to make their message more anti-China. At the same time Chinese propaganda tends to be more STUPID. You can instantly recognize it because literally everything they say revolve round something like "under the leadership of Xi this and that", "The party and the central government bla bla bla". No one reads these shit in China.
But in general, as far as what I've noticed, Chinese people do understand the west better than that vice versa. Learning western politics and history is mandatory for a Chinese student since middle school. Further more, using a vpn is not illegal in China, but providing one is not. In 2018, over tens on millions of Chinese tourists travelled abroad, and If China is actually as bad as the western media portraits, why don't they just stay there.
it's 2019... if certain countries around the world REALLY wanted to know whether or not there were concentration camps throughout China, they could easily find out with satellite imagery (and i guarantee some already know the answer to that question...)
but think about what would become of that information.... whoever found it would be responsible of reporting it. once the world finds out, what happens next? UN laws would pretty much force intervention, but who would do it? what would this ultimately cause throughout the world?
conspiracy theory? maybe... but practicality and responsibility both play major roles in this
You are absolutely right. But one question: how do you distinguish a concentration camp from a normal prison.
Considering the relationshit between China and the US right now, I imagine the US would have exposed everything that could damage the CCP leadership. They don't need the UN to intervene, all they need to do is to just put out some legit proof and I promise China would collapse. If the best they've got is a picture of a top of a building, I would be disappointed by the CIA. Also I couldn't think of any motivation for the CCP to, despite the risk, put one million minorities into torture camps.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I would much prefer to believe in what I see with my own eyes, or information with legit proof.
They'll know. If they don't initially, they will surely find out.
Believe it or not, Trump wants to strengthen global relationships while also looking after our best interests. Exposing this type of stuff, or defacing Chinese political leaders/policies to that extent, would show very poor taste while also severely damaging global relations and/or any planned future reconciliation efforts. That would be an irreversibly terrible idea....
It would be awful to find out that there are camps like that throughout China, but at the same time i don't think people would be necessarily surprised. There were a number of "re-education" camps throughout Vietnam after the war. Some of those S. Vietnamese were in camps for over 10 years.... only recently did the Vietnamese really start telling their stories.
I, like you, much prefer to believe in what i see with my own eyes. But at the same time, stories of this nature (Chinese camps like this) don't just manifest out of thin air...
yea for sure. I think the organ harvesting thing is a little too far-fetched for me.
Camps designed to torture Uyghurs or other ethnic groups are unfortunately more plausible, but also you have to think about what time we live in. Like i said about the satellite imagery, you'd hope that countries would SEVERELY hesitate before they started going down those paths. The world will inevitably find out....
Yes, but before there's enough evidence, I don't want to rush to any conclusion. Still, I don't see detaining Uyghurs benefits the CCP in any way.
Furthermore, terrorism was a problem in Xinjiang. Back in 2009, extremist in Urumqi grouped up on streets and smashed everything in their way. 140 people were killed, over 2000 people were injured.
" youtube.com/watch?v=JXL9mxV49xo"
Year 2014 in Kunming, a dozen terrorists from Xinjiang went into a train station killed 29 people with knives, 130 were wounded.
"bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-26402367"
Guess we'll have to wait to find out whether these things are really educating the extremists or torturing the innocents.
Ok just move into mainland china and live opressed then lmao
What an ignorant comment
Have you ever lived in mainland China? I would feel much safer there than here, despite living far East HK island they've come within one MTR stop from my house.
Okay go have ur internet censored bruh Im sure ull be missed on this site
Don't worry, I know what a VPN is
Yes its an felony in mainland china, thats what it is
I've been to mainland China more than I can count. I need the VPN for porn mate, I've used it countless times. Porn is banned in China. China is also a haven for depraved males due to a gender disparity. Do you seriously think no one in China watches porn?
Contrary to your Western disinformation, I haven't been arrested nor detained in some cruel concentration camp where I have my organs harvested.
Yeah every1 breaks the law here too, its just less arbitrary and ofc fairer
I do agree that the Chinese legal system is definitely one of (almost probably THE) most unfair systems when it comes to political related cases, otherwise it's like any other country
Yeah, dont u want to change that or something though??
What people have to understand is that there isn't much that can be done. Protesting now - when the extradition bill has not just been shelved, but cancelled - only serves to ruin the state of the HK economy and paralyse the city, resulting in further discontent. Unless China undergoes a radical change starting from the highest positions of government (which, due to Xi's term limit law, is impossible barring extraordinary circumstances), Hong Kong is best suited to sit content. The violence only serves to give China an excuse to treat Hong Kong even more harshly when 2047 rolls around.
It's not. Downloading and using a VPN is legal, so you can download Norton or something from China
. Cause if Vpns were illigal, wouldn't that fuck up all businesses? However from my knowledge, some cases of creating Vpns is illigal. But I'm pretty sure you still can, just with government approval or something? But most people download western or Russian vpns through Apk's
what do you mean? Didn't you say that you won't forget Tiananmen and you must find democracy?
he just stated that VPN is not illegal in China, nothing more. Does this statement nullify his previous one?
?? I'm confused
Is it true that the cause of AIDS in China is Xi-Jinping’s unwashed penis for 50 years?
Ok these are actually good shitpost content.
Is it true that the cause of AIDS in US is Trumps unwashed penis for 50 years?
I like Democracy China, I hope China has about 20
I hope that Inner Mongolia, Tibet and Taiwan will all be independent.
Ok goodnight
ok you too good night
just nuke both china and hong kong yall are fucking annoying
one more news headline about those commie Uncle Ben's Boys and i'll lose my fucking mind.
> thinking China (or god forbid HK) is communist in practice
I pray for you
nt commie
It's not even communist, it's a one party democracy but the one party is split into many "factions". We'll only one main one rn, cause xi jingping has too much power
yea i am well aware of the situation in china, i am just taking the piss. but honestly, i can't be asked to listen to this shit day in day out, even on hltv you get daily threads.
Fair enough.
i completely understand, we are annoyed with it ourselves
So long as you remain at home, it shouldn't be an issue. However as a student going to school on the Peak (HK Island West), I've had to take taxis to get from home to school and vice versa. These past few days, the problem at the Cross-Harbour tunnel has escalated to the point where the Education Bureau has ordered all schools closed until further notice. So I've been forced to stay at home.
I witnessed the stabbing / ear biting of the Taikoo Shing district councillor after leaving a Korean BBQ restaurant on the 3rd or 4th of November (i think), but I promptly left with my family on a Taxi. Unless you ACTIVELY seek out conflict, you aren't in danger, just major inconvenience. Taxi bills from where I live to the Peak are around 17USD, one way. Per day I might have to spend around 40USD on transport, depending on road blockages.
Of course it’s escalated too far, but you have to acknowledge that what majority of the protesters demands is just.
Not to mention that mainland China will 100% crack down on Hong Kong when they finally annex Hong Kong completely, you will all be labeled as high risk, you will be watched like a hawk, you will likely be searched and beaten for anything they think is out of the ordinary, until they think you are firmly under control.
It must be terrifying to live in Hong Kong knowing that eventually your life as you know it will end.
Also the police are insanely corrupt (ironic coming from USA I know) so it’s not like the protesters are just rioting for no reason.
I feel like the original purpose of the protesting is lost imo. If I'm not mistaken, the initial purpose was just to stop the extradition bill, but that has already been withdrawn, so I'm really not sure how this escalated all the way to total democracy.(correct me if I'm wrong)
Yeah, it’s for sure gone too far, I think they are now fighting for the police to be held accountable to the crimes they are committing (ironic seeing how a lot of them are committing crimes as well) and for there to be more fair elections (a democratic protester was banned from running) and maybe full on freedom.
But some of their violence is in retaliation, it seemed like they were being beaten unfairly at the beginning and they thought it would be smart to fight back (it’s not, cause it’s now being used as propaganda against them and makes them look like terrorist) so now they think they can win against China for some reason
That is true. It's really unfortunate that a group of violent ones bring such a negative image.
+1
Although I personally didnt have a positive relationship with Hong Kong, I supported the initial protesting as I understood where they came from. However, the violent actions of some protestors arent very good, which is a shame because most of them are peaceful and pretty sure most people are there just to see what's going on.(Zhao re nao)
The actions that some of them do, like smashing shops, stoping the MTR, and blocking roads and such aren't doing much but fucking yourself over. These actions will impact hongkongers daily lives, impact those who aren't too interested in the whole situation and just want to go to work. One of my dad's friends had to walk 2 hours everyday to get to work cause of the trains being stopped, which is a pain for many people.
I don't dislike all protestors, just the extreme ones. It's just that, I'd rather not for a tienenmen v2 to happen (my parents atleast, cause they were directly affected) because the curry events, are really similar to what happened in the past.
Media from different regions really portray the situation in different lights. Western media is praising the protestors while the chinese (mainland) are portraying them as savages. Honestly, imo for reliable info, it comes down to first hand experience, which you have.
Best of luck to you man.
responding to violence with more violence doesn't really help solve the issue you know
there is a better option. protest leaders coming to LegCo and negotiating a deal like men
Except their demands wasn't even that selfishly beneficial to them, and more about expecting something normal from their government? You know, asking them to be responsible for their actions (police) against their own citizen and such, returning to the position as if there's no riot occurring, etc.
No, that's not threatening, else you'd call any escalated protests as one. I don't know how skewed your "norms" are by living in China, but the world isn't looking at them in such a way.
Have you looked at the five demand? It is actually very inconsistent and irresponsible.
1. To withdraw the extradition bill
2. To stop labeling protesters as “rioters”
3. To drop charges against protesters
4. To conduct an independent inquiry into police behavior
5. To implement genuine universal suffrage for both the Legislative Council and the Chief Executive
1. They have already done that months ago.
2. Definition of rioters: one of a group of people who behave in a violent way in a public place, often as a protest.
3. Why? They are the ones claiming HK no longer has the rule of law, why do they have the privilege to destroy public properties and to hurt people they disagree with without getting punished?
4. Again, double standerd! Many polices are already punished because of their inappropriate behavior. Why would the rioters and the police be treated differently under the same law?
5. This is the only one that make sense, despite it may not be realistic.
This protest is not the same as a typical western one. They committed serious violence toward the police and the general public who dares differ with them. They destroyed properties that don't belong to them. They leaked information of polices' families and some of them are violently bullied by the protesters.
The world is looking at them in a different way is because the media is extremely biased. The western media never showed the incidences where an old man was burned alive by rioters when he was just trying to stop the violence. A 70 yr old cleaner was killed on street because the rioters was throwing bricks off a bridge without being responsible enough to realize random people can be severely injured because of that.
I respect the courage of standing up against authorities, but these iresponsible behaviors make me realize that they (the violent ones) are just some brainless babies not heroes.
they haven't done that already?
If you assume I'm a fake flagger, then there isn't a premise upon which we can have a meaningful conversation - I'll just address your second point.
People seem to be hung up on the preschool mentality that whoever started the violence first is in the wrong, and therefore the HK police are in the wrong - yet, even adhering to this principle, the HK protesters are at fault.
The first violent protests occurred on 12th June, 2019. I remember because I couldn't go home and was stuck at a friend's house on the Peak. This is when protesters uprooted bricks in Tamar Park and stole materials from a nearby construction site when tensions in Admiralty and Harcourt Road escalated. The police did not do anything - the protesters had committed vandalism first.
Plus, I think we can all agree that any argument about reasonable force use goes out the window when you commit crimes as such as citywide vandalism, assault, arson etc. that we have seen (maybe not you, since you don't even live here) from the protesters in the past few weeks (coming on months, now)
Nice, you're not disturbed by the little bait.
I actually figured about that way long time ago before it erupted into this kind of scale, similar to your points about what if the protesters are indeed just way too crazy, that we (or at least me and a lot of other people worldwide) are only presented to good sides of the protesters. Tho I kinda believed and maybe till now do that they're way more peaceful (comparatively) than the police will ever be due to the force, items/tools, and authority they have.
Yeah the answer is not black & white, there're def a lot of blacks on both sides. But man, I just can't justify any of the force used by the police in front of the peaceful protester such as the EMS, the enraging calling of objectifying human, dismemberment/"suicide", torture; none of the evil done by the protesters are even close to what the police have done, individually. Maybe sure in the large scale, but that'd be govt-population kind of response, not per individual police-protester.
Tho, one curious point I wanted to ask all these times is: how representative are the protesters really? As a whole vs supporter vs ones protesting in the field vs the ones opposing vs the ones ignoring, etc.
I get that the police have in many cases gone overboard - especially in the Sai Wan Ho shooting incident where the police was evidently in no position of harm. But I would consider it negligible to simply discount the damage that a small minority of protesters have done to Hong Kong's reputation and Hong Kong's economy. The overwhelming attitude in Hong Kong is not one supporting either side, rather a wish for the violence to come to a halt and for normality to resume.
I would argue that the protesters represent a radical minority in Hong Kong, that is they are the ones who dare to act on anti-Chinese (Chinese being mainland) sentiment which exists in Hong Kong. Most people just want shit to stop, at this rate I wouldn't be surprised if foreign businesses started to leave HK
I don't think foreign businesses will leave until the dust settles and the world can see what the outcome is.
If the protesters are forced to compromise on terms they don't agree with, you very-well might see businesses leave in protest, which would severely amplify the problem.
If mutual terms are agreed upon and people are genuinely happy with the result, i don't see anything changing.
I really don't know how the violence escalated in HK, but in most of similar cases are the police (politic police) the one who start first being above what's ok and then they try with laws to put in jail anyone who thinks different (politic judgment).
Then, most of this rallies start as pacific rallies, with some incidents here and there, but nothing too big. If the dominant party is smart, it will try to negotiate on a way everybody is kinda happy, but if they keep doing the same repression, one day, people who use his right to rally pacifically, will either go home or go fight. It's just a natural behavior in all species, if you get pushed and pushed, one day you're gonna show your claws or leave.
If that day happens, and politics keep pushing, then blood comes sooner or later. You could think that the protesters are the wrong ones to use violence, but although I don't agree with violence, China is the one who pushed them to that no end street, what's the alternative choice? Lose freedom and in some cases go to jail or death.
It's amazing that we are on S.XXI and we can go to the moon but we still deal with this kind of problems.
"You could think that the protesters are the wrong ones to use violence, but although I don't agree with violence, China is the one who pushed them to that no end street, what's the alternative choice? Lose freedom and in some cases go to jail or death."
^ Bingo
Protest in varying levels of intensity have occurred everywhere throughout the world and history teaches us that people are more than willing to fight and die for liberties, freedom, and what they believe is best for the people. You can't think for one second that this situation in Hong Kong will be any different.
foxbusiness.com/markets/senate-unanimous..
It's not in China, but it's something big...
huh, reasonable argument, have a bump
Finally a sophisticated HK user out here, bump for you
username checks out
+1
protesting is not the answer.
it leads on to more shit which leads on to more shit then the cycle goes on.
bruh.... if you're really an American, there's no possible way you could think that.
Imagine using self-made weapon against police in US lol.
Imagine trying to rob a gun out of police's pocket in US lol.
In US people wont pity these pests and will support police to shoot.
In HK, everyone: police is oppressing people. So when will you stop? Let you motherfakers be the police and raise an army?
+1, had these protests happened in America (which the protesters seem to hold in such regard) we would be seeing 1000+ dead, easily
dunno about 1000+ dead... even during the Civil Rights Movement and Vietnam anti-war protests, which were the most severe protesting movements we've had since the Civil War, we didn't lose that many people. But LOTS were hospitalized because the police primarily used clubs to manage the crowds. Isolated incidents, like at Kent State University, were the severe ones where law enforcement used firearms with live ammo... The footage from those years is utterly unbelievable.... I couldn't even imagine being this age back then lol
Generally speaking, Americans support the ideology of protesting against the government when they believe they're not being treated justly and/or if the country is turning down a dangerous and costly path. To be honest i'm not exactly sure what the movement would be like if it was in America, but i will guarantee that there would be the same behavior, violence, and vandalism that you're seeing in HK. But in America it's just sooooooo much easier to gather large groups of people, march to government buildings, shut down cities, etc. It's honestly embraced and people skip school or work to participate.
Only about a month ago, the teachers and school admins in Chicago (like 30k people or more i think) protested about the schools, how they were getting paid, their treatment, etc. The protests went on for days, they marched through the city streets, and disrupted a lot of what was going on throughout the city.
I don't care about the social credit system - I don't have to live in China. I care about Hong Kong though. Care to provide an actual, valid argument?
How are protesters risking their lives for anyone's sake? And how am I being intellectually dishonest? Just out of curiosity.
Many forms of intellectual dishonesty here but the biggest one is it is not 1937 anymore. This is largely emotive nonsense based on historical fears and paranoia.
The world has changed greatly in the last 75yrs and not one nuke has been employed.
Ofc Pooh is the single biggest customer of facial recog tech in the history of the world-hence the mask ban.
Forgive me, what do I mention in my arguments about historical context or nukes or such? I don't want to look through this thread
Also, of course I don't agree with the use of widespread, state-sanctioned facial recognition technology. I don't think any reasonable person could.
Protesters are actually getting paid by their orgs. Just imagine how they can live without income from work and most of them dont have work right?
Our Secret Association knows that all the comrades who have read this article are comrades who aim at the collapse of the Chinese regime. If we remain patient, the Chinese regime will collapse. Dear comrades, the Democratic Party hopes that the dictatorship of the corrupt regime China will collapse!
Get out of here with your propaganda crap. We aren't brainwashed. In germany we have a part in our Grundgesetz that allows us without any law consequences to resist.
"(4) All Germans shall have the right to resist any person seeking to abolish this constitutional order if no other remedy is available." Article 20GG
I am fine with HongKong citizen to fight for their rights. Not only because China is the enemy also cuz they fight for the correct values.
Nobody asks today how much blood was paid for the France revolution but all know it was necessary and a very important event for the whole of Europe.
+1 my based german brother, the original post saying something in the line of hong kong people are violent = protest bad is disgusting to me, these people are protesting for some basic human rights and are meanwhile threathened by the police, attacked or arrested even while protesting peacefully.
I'm not generalising the protest movement whatsoever. In fact, you not only generalising the Hong Kong people as being violent, but mischaracterising my argument as a simple "(hk protesters) violent = protest bad" is disingenuous.
This whole situation in HK, where you have a violent minority being portrayed by Western media as a powerful, vocal majority (due to the 2 million on June 9th/16th I suppose), wreaking havoc and causing inconvenience for the general populous, as well as sealing HK's fate for 2047 and ensuring harsh treatment by the CCP (who by the way, are firmly still in control and WILL remain in control) is so avoidable. All the protest leaders have to do is come to the negotiating table, then you will NOT have all these problems with the police, and with sensible negotiating we can come to a resolution. And the peaceful protests have ended after the extradition bill, buddy.
You're the one using incidents, which admittely are becoming more frequent, as a reason why the protests are futile and cause for fragmenting the hong kong people. Your argument that protest leaders should come to the negotiation table is laughable. If they do that they will either get arrested or just straight up ignored. This indeed started because of the extradition bill but became much bigger than and is now a part of the hong kong people fighting for their independence which is constantly threathened by china. The fact that you say that negotiation with china is the only option shows how naive you really are, buddy
These incidents aren't the reason why the protests are futile. At its current stage, the protests are futile by nature. Maybe protest leaders do need to get arrested for how unbelievably disgraceful these protests have been. The 3 remaining demands which they have put forward - not including the right to dual universal suffrage, which I also agree should be a right in all countries - are disgraceful.
That's fine. I'm glad you were civil at least, unlike some other users here
I completely agree, that if there is reasonable need for resistance, then resistance is justified. That is why I completely supported the 2 million protesting against the unfair extradition bill. I think that bill should 100% have been killed and I was happy when it did die.
But now? What constitutional order is being infringed upon in Hong Kong? One can't even argue for the mask ban, since the high court ruled that unconstitutional yesterday. Yet, protests persist.
Using buzzwords like "propaganda" and "China is the enemy" is not going to do anyone any good. Clarify your stance. You argue that Hong Kong citizens are rightfully fighting for their rights, which are being infringed upon, and that there is a chance (I'm assuming this is what you meant, feel free to correct me) that there could be another French Revolution in China or something similar.
I'm going to tell you now that technology has come a long way from 1789. There is no longer a small disparity between the state militia and that of the people. China holds 290 nuclear weapons and the largest army in the world. The advent of foreign intervention would run along a thin line, perhaps resulting in nuclear war. I'm not so sure you can draw a parallel between the French Revolution and today.
The French revolution is only an example that you have sometimes to fight to survive even with violence. Lose of Freedom is btw one of the things that threaten your life
I don't compare the times or the situations 1:1
Buzzwords? Propaganda is the only thing China do in the media. That has nothing to do with truth. So it is the correct term.
And China is an enemy not only for HK for the whole world and If China doesn't change their politics in a long term a real war between countires will happen cuz they also threaten their neighbours like Japan and also the USA etc.
This isn't about a fight for survival. I don't know how many times I have to rehash this argument, but not only is this fight un-winnable, but it's also largely futile. What rights are being infringed upon? You've yet to answer this question beyond "Loss of freedom". Even so, I understand if people want to fight something against which they have no chance, but wouldn't a diplomatic agreement be the better alternative to the current situation, with injuries/casualties on both sides?
Also, you seem to be billing me as some Chinese propaganda shill. I don't know if you don't trust flags - it's perfectly natural for people on HLTV to not - but I was born and raised in HK. You've failed to address the bulk of my argument in any meaningful way labelling it "propaganda" and brushing it aside.
I find it funny that you cite a coming conflict with China and the world when China is taking on (and becoming gradually more successful) a hugely globalist outlook, even moreso than the USA, who is having their own problems with Trump in office. So please clarify again why China is the enemy of the world, beyond your own disagreements with their political system (which I also find regrettable)
the protestor said what they want for a diplomatic way. This isn't too much. So China has to decide and if they still wanna fight then okay but it is their fault.
Fight for freedom is a basic human nope nature right. When you create a state you have to be sure that all people in the state agree with the terms. In a democracy, people get ask every time. That is what the protestors want and by 7 million people with at least 2 Million that fight you can consider the majority of HK want that.
Your state will fail if so many people don't agree with the terms.
About the last part the conflict between Japan and China about sea-rights resources etc. China use North-Korea to threat the USA and support a wanting war.
China also started to abuse Africa states like many European di at 1900 but China will own them for real not only by money.
Of course you can fight for freedom. I agree that it's a basic right. But what freedom are you fighting for? This is like the 4th time I've asked this question. When the vast majority of HKers called for the withdrawal of the extradition bill, it took a while because the HK government is shit but it did happen:
scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article..
Now, the vast vast vast minority of violent protesters are garnering sympathy with the West. Why? What rights are they fighting for?
Also, just a question, do you think American imperialism is something worth calling them the "enemy of the people" for? I'm not a Chinese apologist, but for every instance of Chinese imperialism/encroachment there must be three of unwarranted American intervention.
The difference between the USA and China is the USA to leave someday the countries and they almost only attacked countries with dictators. China in another hand backs up a dictator like Russia in Syria.
So till today, the USA has some boundaries. China will only expense like ants. They don't really care who stays in front of them. For them, they are all the same. They even suppress people in their own country and steal the country.
Look at Taiwan.
Do the USA steal Canada or Mexico?
They fight 4 a fair vote system. For freedom of speech and still be independent as possible from China but they don't demand full independence.
HK Government agreed 1/5 request for a diplomatic way LUL.
I have to do my HW now, but I will address this as fast as possible -
HKers already have freedom of speech. Independence from China is impossible (case in point, Taiwan).
The only real threat was the extradition bill which was justifiably killed.
1-Full withdrawal of the extradition bill
2-An independent commission of inquiry into alleged police brutality
3-Retracting the classification of protesters as “rioters”
4-Amnesty for arrested protester
5-Dual universal suffrage, meaning for both the Legislative Council and the Chief Executive
Those are the demandings. Maybe they could sound stupid or not worth all this fight, but when official reports said police didn't kill a single protester, but there are a lot of "suicides" records around, I guess is normal that they fight for that.
I mean, when you want to commit suicide you don't cut yourself in pieces to achieve that (china logic). I have no idea if that's true or not, but they keep yelling their names and saying that they won't commit suicide when they are arrested, so at least is a common fear they have, and there's plenty of images of people arrested going to trains that reminds something that happened not so long ago...
I mean, if the protestors are really terrorist and this is fake news, why don't you let an international and independent comission to see what's really happening there? I mean, if police is really kind with no torture and all of this is just HK terrorist propaganda, why you don't let the world see the truth from a non-biased point of view?
I think there's no need to explain why and which is the side attacking democracy and civil and freedom rights.
To begin with, two of the five demands contradict one another. Under the rule of law, why would policed be punished by their violent actions but not the protesters?
Also, according to the Oxford English dictionary, rioters means one of a group of people who behave in a violent way in a public place, often as a protest. So I guess they also wanna redefine the word riot.
There are no "independent commission". Every agency only report one side of the story. But I can show you some cases of violent riots.
" youtube.com/watch?v=PAHoWZgKvuA"
" youtube.com/watch?v=vJcdT0yd1As"
" youtube.com/watch?v=5OE-R3F-_70"
Who's telling you 'China is the enemy'? Or just assumed by you. China is the so called motherland of Hong Kong. Whatever protesters(rioters) are pursuing, they are using a terrible method currently. Yes, everyone has free will to act what he wants to, but, should not violates the law and the benefits of normal citizens!
China accepted an agreement with the UK to get HK back. They tried to undermine this agreement and all of this started.
So China violates the law in the first place.
There are Courts in Hong Kong, and if someone was not pleased with that. Just like the face mask ban was ruled as unconstitutional by the HK High Court. Whatsoever, We cannot hijack people's interest because of other's fault. And at least, what are the protesters doing now, it is not the rightful solution of it.
where did they undermine the agreement? by having a bill for extradition for criminals? if the brainwashed hk youth wants to remove this bill, they are protecting these criminals. is anyone wants to support these riots, they are the real enemy which is usa here. not surprised to see someone so brainwashed that he thinks the guys who speak truth are brainwashed.
You aren't smart?
1. The case who started was crime in Taiwan not China. China used the chance to do it for them as well.
2. The idea would undermine every right in hk cuz china
Could claim it as illegal to use free speech or other hk privileges even it is allowed in Hong Kong.
Really if you don't understand the issue here just stay away.
1. Wrong, hk wanted to have extradition for multiple countries(not just china) for the criminals. No one except usa and allies would support this. Usa used this chance to fund these riots and pushing this propaganda through its media.
2. I have no idea what this planet idea is. care to give any link?
> Really if you don't understand the issue here just stay away.
Ironic that you say this.
+1
are you from HK?
Yes
what do you believe Hongkongers should do?
I saw video where one guy got knifed public by machete of 3 peoples.... IN HK.
To be fair, there is violence on both sides. I'm just advocating for a peaceful resolution, I don't know why people necessitate violence
source?
if true, didn't know that, thanks!
According to a survey conducted by the Chinese University of Hong Kong (CUHK) in July 2016, nearly 40% of Hongkongers aged 15 to 24 supported the territory becoming an independent entity, whereas 17.4% of the overall respondents supported independence, despite only 3.6% stating that they think it is "possible".
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_indepe..
There are other sources that claim only 11% support the independence but I'm currently at work so can't find them
- I'm a student, so no job.
- I don't support China in any way, everything I want is for the wellbeing of Hong Kong, if you disagree we can talk it out
Have any real qualms with my points? Let's discuss. If you want to call names and insult me, you can do that.
Protesters with molotovs, bow and arrows and bricks, huh, what a wonderful place.
This is a common misconception.
First of all, China doesn't give a shit about China. Hong Kong messing up Hong Kong doesn't impact China or its citizens in any way.
Second, the CCP has everything to lose and nothing to gain if they forcefully suppress these riots. The situation in Hong Kong is fully televised and covered by the media and if they do indeed "send in the tanks" like you suggest, the international community will do everything they can to sanction China without risking war. They will become a pariah in the international community. Foreign businesses will pull out. Investments plummet. Countries stop taking Chinese imports, etc. etc.
Contrary to popular belief, the CCP does indeed know what they are doing.
Ok, guess I'm a brick))
You have zero stake in this whole ordeal. If you have a position I'd like to hear it.
If you want to shout me down with insults that's fine too, whatever floats your boat.
Don't get me wrong. I can only imagine how fucked this situation is.
On one side there's the shit the chinese government tries to pull. On the other side the daily life of all Hong Kong citizens is fucked.
My stake? I hate totalitarian governments (or wannabe totalitarians). If one day some of those cunts succeed without anyone fighting it, it creates blueprint for others - and fuck that. The governments already dictate enough of all our daily lives. I don't need supreme overlords like Xi Ping in my life.
Democracy only works just fine if people are at least somewhat able to understand the whole situation, otherwise, the democracy will only lead to the rise of populists. Also, it's impossible to ensure true democracy when your current economic system is capitalism, I think I don't have to explain why.
I know. I live in Hong Kong.
I understand you hate totalitarian governments. I hate them as well. But we here in Hong Kong were dealt a particularly devastating hand. All I'm pointing out is that with our position, Hong Kongers are in no position to make an real change to actually meet these demands, and in trying to do so we are just screwing ourselves further. You know why? Because although China couldn't give enough of a shit about us today, if the protests escalate to a certain point, we will get retribution in 2047.
Advocating for global awareness on this issue is a far more impactful course of action. Like, if you live in the US, asking to pass the bill about HK etc.
saying these simple things but want to get some decent conversation? you are not decent in the first place.
you need to go through these masks to get to the truth below:
1. china (beijing) will make hongkong a city like any other in mainland.
2. protestors are trying to overthrow the colonization of china.
3. hk gov pretends to work for 1 but in fact many members in it are supporting 2.
both sides know these above and both sides know that their opponent know these above.
CCP built a strong hierarchical organization to control the nation. under this system every official holds response to who hired him, not the people. and winnie the pooh, on top of the system, can dominate all 1.5 billion people. hk protestors put out 5 demands that seems not related to independence. but, they know that CCP will never allow a city in china not under the control system of beijing.
china is waiting for a reason, a reason for massacre on streets. if they protestors remove their cover saying "we want to remove this gov" then its time for chinese troops to suppress them. and of course protestors knows this so they pretend to put out some reasonable demands and dont want to meet beijing plan.
but we know that world is ruled by power, so the final stage would be chinese troops killing anyone who dont want to be chinese anyway. we can do nothing and we will do nothing. if all 7.5 million hk citizens dont want to live under authoritarian then chinese troops would simply kill all these 7.5 million and bring chinese mainlanders to live there instead. hk police (and any other troops who works for authoritarian) are not willing to kill their siblings, thats why those emperors (like Nicolae Ceausescu) failed when they had controlled military forces and the people had none. but chinese troops dont have such a problem.
China doesn't need to bring in any military force to Hong Kong. At this rate, Hong Kong will die itself. Do you honestly think China gives a shit about Hong Kong in any meaningful way? You may have been right when Hong Kong made up something crazy like 30% of the Chinese GDP. In fact, most people don't give a shit about the situation in Hong Kong beyond virtue signalling on their social media posts for likes.
yeah, chinese dont give sh*t about life and death in hk. they just want more territories. ive heard many chinese saying like "nuke all taiwanese to seize taiwan" or "what we need is land not ppl". so they will definitely support a massacre on hongkong streets. thats why i said their (protestors) death is sealed.
oh dear how could u take these serious?these words are said to taiwanindependence supporters by a few radical netizens.
In fact,we dont even give a shit about who those citizens vote for,we are friendly to everyone as long as they recognize one country two systems
OP is actually braindead lmao.
I guess I am then. Regardless, I would certainly like to hear your position.
protesters biggest idiots. they all should get arrested or get shot when they dont listen to the police
chinazi = nazi lol
Every country ever with non-violent protests have had 3-5 % of the worlds population contributing in them have all succeeded...
Free Hong Kong Democracy
Free Tibet Democracy
Free Uyghur Democracy
Free macau Democracy
Free Inner mongolia Democracy
Taiwan No.1
China No.9999
+1, heightened international recognition is the way to go about it, violence isn't.
yeah, i know it so Free Hong Kong Revolution Now Free Hong Kong Democracy Now support for hong kong freedom
It's a price to pay, I don't support vandalism (btw the video of the guy being lit on fire was from fake protestors apparentely chinese and not from hong kog) but if it can lead to indipendence then it's necessary
I respect that you've at least laid out your claim, and I completely get that sometimes the ends justify the means, but in this case, China will never allow Hong Kong to secede. That's what's so frustrating about this whole situation. Enough futile violence by a minority in this day and age will, in 2047, ensure great suffering of the majority.
I agree. I mean, obviously the chances that the protests lead to any success whatsoever are close to 0. On the other hand, living in a completely unfree society in which you cannot even state your opinions is not really worth living
Hker should realize that 1 country comes before 2 system, this is how China works no way around it. Hong Kong will only further prosper and enjoy peace by working with China ( Macau SAR).
You don't win the chess game against CCP by smashing your chess pieces while playing in China's chessboard. It will be against your national interest to deal with China in 2047 with a weaker economy , a weaker society.
The hatred for China / anti-China sentiments stems from the gut feeling of people that China has grown into a powerful nation that is challenging the collective West . (Partly due to Yellow peril)
It is in my believe and hope that East asia countries will work together with China in the future to
secure a peaceful region. (China signs defence agreement with South Korea today). It certainly doesnt help when USA elected Donald Trump when the rest of the world is seeking global leadership in dealing with things like Climate change .
i hope the rational and cooler heads will prevail in hongkong .
Hope OP and your family stay safe in HongKong!
I agree mate but as soon as you don't create the BUZZ, no one will take you seriously.
In France we have a big protesting ;ove;emt called "Gillet Jaune" since one year.
After 5 weeks protesting peacefully: No sound from government, no sound from medias etc.
After 1 week of violence (Bank glasses broken are small other things), our president made a speech.
The conclusion is that violence is a way to make people react. That's a fact. Because government will not act until the moment they feel the scare: The scare for their jobs, for their money, for their families... If you just seat down in the street saying you are not happy, nothing will change
That's sad, but that's it.
I don't remember any revolution that worked without violence.....
LOL
wow wow wow we don't discuss your political views here it's not allowed
China is disgusting. Just move to mainland if you want to avoid trouble. We koreans support hong kong protest. But few chinese students in korea, they threaten korean students(mostly girls) for supporting hong kong. I mean wtf lol. Their attitude is absolutely disgusting. You dont support them? Thats fine. Its your choice. But dont call people who fights for freedom 'terrorists'. Korea has also had many historical protests for freedom. That is something. Not terrorism.
I repeat myself from another thread about HK. : world is just too cynical and hypocritical. We must boicott moscovia and china on all possible levels without any mercy, "tolerancy" and other "liberal" bullshit. moscovia is criminal state agressor, china is damn communist agressive opressor. How it must work? Complete boicott means total rejection of anything that belong/relevant to those to territories called "countries".
When I say everywhere I mean it straight - starting from this site for example - fakeflagging must be stopped. Flags of those two terriotories must be banned. Comments supporting those two terrotories in one way or another must be deleted and users who write them banned. Etc.
There are no "good" , "innocent" people living on those territories. Even if a certain (relatively small) percentage of the population does not really support the foreign policy of their states, then in fact such people are still guilty of their inaction. In essence, it is passive collaboration, criminal inaction. In fact, such people are passive accomplices to crimes committed by their state.
Also people who don`t consider themselves as cynics and hypocrites, who didn`t forget about morality yet etc must stop buy anything made on those territories, stop watch/listen/read anything produced there etc.
This should continue until the power changes there - until people of those territories make revolution. Only after the condemnation of all crimes committed by their states over the centuries and after true repentance, when those terriotories become really normal, world removes the boycott.
It's not wrong to fight against dictatorship. It would going into messes if more protests appeared in street. And the reasons why protests are still there cuz those demands havent done yet.
One more thing, HK is governed by democracy for now, but it also would be dictatorship once it slips into CCP.
I like this thread. Can't add anything but I like it.
dont read then
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15:30GODSENT vs Illuminar
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14:00Natus Vincere vs Heroic
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