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C9 Colossus Haters Come Here
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Sweden Lagge15 
For those of you who know me, read my posts and comments here, or seen me on any other social media, you are fully aware of my stand-point regarding the C9 Colossus lineup. People claim I am biased due to Mezii being a part of the team, and me being a GamerLegion fans ever since the org's inception in CSGO. But I started becoming a fan straight from the interview between DeKay and HenryG - and for the record: I am one of a few who don't think HenryG is a good caster. I think this team will be amazing, not because of the players, but because of the approach on how they build a team. But I see over and over again people complaining about the team, but rarely do I ever see any specific reason why they dislike it or why they think it will fail. So, please - be specific with your complaints and try to open my mind about the Colossus. I will argue with you, and 90% will be to just get a debate going from which you and I can learn from eachother. But my approach is kinda "ruggid" which means it can feel like I either defend or attack within the argument, in "unnecessary" ways. This is a technique, but not emotional. What do you think is a failure for this team and what do you consider a success for the team? What are the threshholds?
2020-10-29 09:40
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#1
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Jordan Zereeni
TLDR?
2020-10-29 09:41
8 replies
#6
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
This is literally less than 5 Snapchat caption limits.
2020-10-29 09:43
7 replies
wtf kind of unit is a snapchat caption limit but I agree with your post
2020-10-29 09:55
6 replies
fakeflagging american perhaps?
2020-10-29 09:57
1 reply
#52
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Sweden Lagge15
Who me?
2020-10-29 10:14
#30
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Sweden Lagge15
I took it as an example because the deal with Snapchat captions is that it is brief and quick and you only get a few seconds to read it
2020-10-29 09:57
3 replies
hmmm we just stopped putting time limits on snaps some years ago, now they are all infinite time, so I haven't thought much about the caption length
2020-10-29 10:00
2 replies
#45
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Sweden Lagge15
oh ok - I stopped using it like 4 years ago, so no idea LUL The idea is that snap is supposed to be short and concise. If you can't take 2 minutes to read this post. Your teachers and parents failed #1
2020-10-29 10:06
+1 yes
2020-10-29 11:21
#2
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Singapore Kerk
Could u give me a rundown of mezii as a player
2020-10-29 09:42
2 replies
#9
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Sweden Lagge15
In GamerLegion (and in Vexed Gaming) he was the star player, but he wasn't the overly aggressive guy like the top tier carries. He was more like a clutcher or "baiter" (Coldzera style) where the team is built to set him up in a great way. On CT side he used utility in a great way and rarely miss any utility. The reason he is so unknown is because he loves the team play and improve personally by being in offline servers or watching demos rather than playing PUGs. So people think he suck because he doesn't care about FaceIt or ESEA
2020-10-29 09:46
1 reply
TDRL ;/
2020-10-29 12:31
Tldr.. C9 still sucks
2020-10-29 09:42
6 replies
thhx
2020-10-29 09:42
#11
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Sweden Lagge15
why?
2020-10-29 09:46
4 replies
they won't get to the top10 because their players are too bad.
2020-10-29 14:19
3 replies
#160
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Sweden Lagge15
How is that even possible? Alex 2nd best player stats-wise, and IGL in a top 2 team in the world Woxic one of the carries in a top 2 team in the world Es3tag have been carrying Heroic through multiple itterations and then been a big part of a short stint good version of Astralis Floppy HARD carried C9 to top 16 Mezii had 3rd best rating in MDL while playing for a team that only won 37.5% of the maps they played. This is almost unheard of Also: Alex was IGL and 2nd best player in LDLC that was 12th in the world. Would you say that LDLC or this C9 got the best players and best approach? Woxic hard carried HellRaisers to top 12 of the world. Would you say he got better or worse support in HellRaisers compared to C9, and would you say he is better or worse as a player today? please elaborate because I can read that people think the players are too bad, but they can't explain why... it is almost as if everyone who say it have no idea what they're talking about and just pull it out of their asses, or create it out of thin air... like the woxic is toxic argument
2020-10-29 14:23
2 replies
alex got carried by good players, was never actually good individually woxic sucked hard lately es3tag is above average but this team will drag him down floppy only played against NA teams and will be destroyed in EU competition mezii played against tier3 teams only and will suck in tier1 (like so many other players before him) mark my words
2020-10-29 14:29
1 reply
#165
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Sweden Lagge15
Alex played with apEx, RpK and NBK/Shox and still was the one setting up the plays and was 2nd best. He was not carried, he set up the plays - and how was he carried in LDLC? Woxic play on 90 ping in a team where multiple other players got carried by him and he still managed to have 1.06 throughout the spring - which was 2nd highest in the team. He dropped off after the player break after losing interest and getting into some issues with the staff of the org... as well as being forced to play differently due to huge strat and protocol changes because other players were dropping off. Has any of Es3tags previous teams dragged him down and have they been better or worse than Colossus? Floppy - EPL s10 7th-8th place, better than MIBR, G2, FaZe, Heroic, North... Same place as 100 Thieves. Better rated than: Rain, Gratisfaction, Ethan, Flusha, Xyp9x, Twistzz, Jkaem, Brehze, Gla1ve, JW, Tarik, Coldzera, cadiaN, dexter, aizy, falleN, Stewie2k, AmanEk, JKS, Kjaerbye, nitr0, kNgV-, and more... same as nexa IEM Katowice 2020: Last place, had 0.14 better than his closest teammate. Lost to Astralis 2-0 (16-7, 16-12) where he hard carried and NiP 2-0 (16-2, 16-9) where he hard carried. Flashpoint 1 4th place: Won their group in phase 1. He ended on 1.12 rating and 2nd best in his team had 1.09. Dreamhack open Leipzig: 5th-6th place. average of his team was 1.05 while he had 1.12 ESEA MDL Global Challenge s31 5th-6th place. Average rating for his team 1.02 and he had 1.14. Got eliminated by Spirit WESG 2018 9th-16th in an event with 27 teams. They played G2 and Valience (later Cr4zy roster). Team avg 0.99 and he had 1.12 He has played EU teams a lot of times, but his teammates have dragged him down. Mezii was top in the server and hard carried in wins over a lot of teams that are around top 30-40 by the time and was hard carrying against the 4 best teams of MDL past season, and had 3rd best rating in that season, even though the team only won 37.5%. If you understand anything about HLTV ratin 2.0 you should know it is almost impossible. Would you consider Nemiga, Sprout, Winstrike, Galaxy Racer, MAD Lions, Winstrike, K23/Syman, Movistar Riders, AGO, and more tier 3? Becuase they have played in T1 events recently, done well in those events... and he have hard carried against all of them So it seems like you either don't watch CSGO, or just make stuff up
2020-10-29 15:06
TLDR
2020-10-29 09:42
2 replies
C9 good. Yes
2020-10-29 09:47
#140
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Germany I_car
C9 good Change my mind
2020-10-29 13:26
As I don't think they will gain any success immediately, I'm pretty sure if they stick together for 5+ months they will be a great team. But only time will tell :)
2020-10-29 09:43
9 replies
#13
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Sweden Lagge15
what would be success in your mind? Where do you think they will end up?
2020-10-29 09:47
8 replies
For at team like that they are definitely aiming for top15 for the first couple of months but I think they will struggle, cause they have to figure out a lot of stuff, but if they stick with it and keep going, I'm sure they can reach top5 before 2021 is done.
2020-10-29 09:51
7 replies
#21
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Sweden Lagge15
I don't even think it would be enough to win all matches the rest of the year and still get top 15 for a new roster. good predictions though. In my mind: Worst case scenario is them being a "top tier bouncer" where if you beat them, you are top tier, if you don't you are not!
2020-10-29 09:53
6 replies
I don't really know the point system, just doing some guessing of what I've seen before, and my own expectations of the players. Alex and es3tag are both experienced in making new teams, so they should be able to solve the problems in the long run.
2020-10-29 09:59
5 replies
#43
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Sweden Lagge15
The ranking system is quite complex and it would most likely take me forever to explain it, since it is "black-box" rankings, and not open for people to see exactly what happens. But Flashpoint placement + Form + wins isn't enough to get really high in the rankings, and I dunno what other events they can play this year.
2020-10-29 10:05
4 replies
Oh, I just realized, you thought I wrote in the end of 2020, but I wrote 2021. I don't expect them to make a mark at all this year.
2020-10-29 10:16
3 replies
#54
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Sweden Lagge15
nah, I read it correctly (had to check) I reacted and responded to first line: "For at team like that they are definitely aiming for top15 for the first couple of months" I doubt they even can become top 15 unless they meet Fnatic, OG and BIG at least 4 times (accumulated) and win all of the series and win Flashpoint. Also matter who win Blast, IEM Beijing-Haidan EU, IEM Global Challenge etc
2020-10-29 10:17
2 replies
Ye okay, I thought you understood it correctly the first time, just got a bit confused. But they are surely gonna get points from other tournaments than Flashpoint. Anyways, let's see what happens :)
2020-10-29 10:36
1 reply
#73
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Sweden Lagge15
Afaik they only got NineToFive 5 and Flashpoint planned, and except for Blast Showdown and Dreamhack MAsters I don't really see events they might play.
2020-10-29 10:49
enjoy paying 75k a month for woxic and esetag have a nice day
2020-10-29 09:45
16 replies
#15
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Sweden Lagge15
so you just dislike the high salaries compared to what they got for the money? So the team isn't bad, just overpaid in your mind?
2020-10-29 09:47
7 replies
#39
JD | 
Poland Banzanic
->saying that u can buy every player because u have money to do so ->getting mezii instead "collosus players"
2020-10-29 10:01
6 replies
#48
RpK | 
France pol44r
mezii is a very good acquisition 0/8
2020-10-29 10:10
#49
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Sweden Lagge15
Just show that they think he was the most undervalued player in the world. So just because you can pay a lot of money doesn't mean you have to. You are building the best TEAM possible, not hiring the most expensive players possible.
2020-10-29 10:10
4 replies
#55
JD | 
Poland Banzanic
good luck at seeing c9 at top1 any time xd just a reminder they could get zywoo
2020-10-29 10:19
3 replies
#63
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Sweden Lagge15
Again: They wanted to build a team, not a roster filled with the most expensive players in the world Who have said top 1? What is your issue with them getting youngsters to develop for the future instead of ONLY getting "finnished" players?
2020-10-29 10:38
2 replies
#64
JD | 
Poland Banzanic
u said urself, "best team possible", then its top1 team, if it is not top1 it means it is not best team possible :)
2020-10-29 10:39
1 reply
#75
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Sweden Lagge15
it isn't always possible to get top1 by buying a team from the start. You won't get the players you want and you can't reassure yourself the players can play together and will perform together, when building from scratch.
2020-10-29 10:50
#19
RpK | 
France pol44r
do you know how much the liquid players are payed LOL in total c9 are gonna spend around 1 million+ by year on salary wich is 2 times lower than astralis!(only number realeeased)
2020-10-29 09:58
7 replies
#23
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Sweden Lagge15
are you sure about this? I read somewhere (think it was Ryan from Rush B Media) who said C9 will be top 5 highest average salaries, or total salaries (no real difference), and this include 11+12k for Mezii and Floppy
2020-10-29 09:54
6 replies
#31
RpK | 
France pol44r
on a danish website they said astralis players are paid 360K by players a year im really stupid and didnt count but thats only 2 times more LOL still ,top 5 higher salaries is not really surprising
2020-10-29 09:59
5 replies
#40
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Sweden Lagge15
no, it isn't surprising, quite opposite actually
2020-10-29 10:02
Astralis as an org is scummy but at least the players fully keep the prize money though
2020-10-29 13:01
3 replies
#129
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Sweden Lagge15
Considering that rumor (is it confirmed?) - Wouldn't the players wanna play Flashpoint over ESL?
2020-10-29 13:02
2 replies
I'd think so but the orgs probably decide
2020-10-29 13:47
1 reply
#154
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Sweden Lagge15
Yeah, I recall Gla1ve kinda vaguely said the players were divided on where to go, and the org decided to go ESL and Blast That hints at least 2 players wanted to go Flashpoint or non-partnered
2020-10-29 14:07
#10
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Finland AleksiBOT
What, you think HenryG isn't a good caster ? He is literally the best in hyping a intense play .
2020-10-29 09:46
5 replies
#16
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Sweden Lagge15
I love him when he was hyping audiences in LAN events (like when he "killed" a crocodile and a coala in IEM Sydney), but due to his nature he often miss a lot of small details in games and he get overhyped by "new" tricks, that most community members have known for months. For instance: Mid Door Hinge smoke on D2 and 5-man boost on Overpass.
2020-10-29 09:49
4 replies
#20
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Finland AleksiBOT
+1 But I prefer caster who can shout on insane play rather than continuing in the same tone .
2020-10-29 09:51
3 replies
#25
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Sweden Lagge15
It is a fine line. You need to be able to go in-depth as well as work with your voice and personality.
2020-10-29 09:55
2 replies
#35
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Finland AleksiBOT
+1 Regarding new C9 : I think a lot depend on how woxic plays, if he plays like he did on online era then C9 is done !
2020-10-29 10:00
1 reply
#46
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Sweden Lagge15
He actually didn't drop off for real until after the player break, when he got tired of being at home and got into some arguments with someone in the staff. he actually was averaging decent rating, even though Mousesports sucked balls, throughout the spring. He didn't drop off as much as Frozen. I think only Ropz had a smaller drop. But his map-to-map rating was fluctuating more
2020-10-29 10:08
It will most likely take some time for teams like this to really work in their full potential. I don't expect them to be top tier instantly but not being consistent top10 team after like 6 months is a failure imo.
2020-10-29 09:47
7 replies
#17
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Sweden Lagge15
how come would it be a failure? Because of the money and the smack talk or some other reason? All teams needs time. But HenryG has said time aspect shouldn't be a thing and he hate that excuse
2020-10-29 09:50
6 replies
Well, obviously cause of the money involved, but also just cause you would expect players of this caliber to be able to make it to top10.
2020-10-29 09:53
3 replies
#26
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Sweden Lagge15
sure, but the current landscape I don't even think Astralis have been conssitently in top 10 Team Liquid is outside of top 10 Fnatic has been first but is now 11th
2020-10-29 09:56
2 replies
Yeah that's true. But if the "chaos" keeps on going, I would actually assume it would benefit a new team, so they should be able to accelerate even faster than you would expect.
2020-10-29 10:00
1 reply
#47
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Sweden Lagge15
Could be, but if a few teams keep going deep, but changing winners, in each event it will be tough. Also: ESL Partnered teams will always play more events, and therefore get "free points" in comparison to Flashpoint and non-aligned teams.
2020-10-29 10:09
I just feel like this team is created to be top tier. Maybe it is because of the money spend, idk. Or just simply because they have so good players in the team so not ending up being better than the previous C9 roster would be a failure.
2020-10-29 10:06
1 reply
#51
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Sweden Lagge15
Definitely But the previous C9 roster was top 16 peak for 1 or 2 weeks. If this C9 doesn't replicate or surpass that, it is a huge failure. But good point.
2020-10-29 10:14
Woxic has consistency issues. Floppy and ESE play the same CT positions. ESE and Mezii play the same T positions.
2020-10-29 09:56
12 replies
#37
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Sweden Lagge15
These are all valid concerns - but Es3tag, Floppy, Alex and Mezii are all kinda versatile players. But that is a weakness in my mind, because it isn't one or two, but four. Es3tag will be playing entry, kinda like he did before he became primary AWPer in Heroic. Mezii will be "support/clutcher" which means he will be "stats-padding" late in each round. Floppy will be lurker. On CT-side Mezii and Floppy most likely will be the Anchors. The issue here is that they usually play weak-/small-site anchors. But I think Floppy will play strong-/big-site anchor. Es3tag will play rotation IIRC. This might be a concern for the future, but we'll see.
2020-10-29 10:00
11 replies
But for a team built top down surely this should have been considered?
2020-10-29 10:03
10 replies
#50
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Sweden Lagge15
Yeah - but the high salary for Es3tag tell me they got more desperate, and was tired of "no thanks" rather than them valueing him as a top5 player in the world. but with Es3tag, Floppy and Mezii, you can build a team for 3-6 months and then you can change whoever doesn't perform (most likely not Es3tag due to investment). So it makes sense if you need to reevaluate the team in 6 months.
2020-10-29 10:13
9 replies
I don’t doubt HenryG’s eye for talent. Rubbish caster but he has a good taste. But this team might turn out more like OG than complexity. There is a lack of firepower. OG feels like an underdog in any match just because of their lineup and I think cloud9 won’t be any different
2020-10-29 12:20
8 replies
#100
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Sweden Lagge15
OG isn't built top-down, come on, you know that! But sure, when it comes to role suitability and versitility and star power, you are kinda right.
2020-10-29 12:22
7 replies
Isn’t it nice to have a non toxic agenda fueled conversation about pro cs
2020-10-29 12:40
6 replies
#111
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Sweden Lagge15
kys
2020-10-29 12:44
5 replies
No u gamerlegion fanboy
2020-10-29 12:45
1 reply
#114
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Sweden Lagge15
omg, flair checks out
2020-10-29 12:45
#113
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Sweden Lagge15
now that's out of the way: I think C9 will be quicker to find their ways than OG. You read my other post about it, right?
2020-10-29 12:45
2 replies
Yeah I think so too. Personally the biggest issue for OG initially was the three IGLs. I remember one called CT side and another called T side. And I remember AleksiB saying they used to talk a lot. Ever since NBK has transitioned into the support and anchor roles, allowing Valde freedom to show his skills, the team balances much better
2020-10-29 12:48
1 reply
#118
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Sweden Lagge15
AFAIK AleksiB was always supposed to do all calls himself, with MAYBE NBK or Valde getting input, as a round specific 2nd caller. You can also see that they are about 3 times better when they just stick to protocols and AleksiB's calls, than when they doubt him or go on a whimp
2020-10-29 12:51
9:40 thursday morning ,,i will argue with you" slow day, huh
2020-10-29 09:56
1 reply
#38
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Sweden Lagge15
my work has fucked my sleep schedule so I woke up at 6 today. So it is almost lunch for me :D
2020-10-29 10:01
I think its a huge advantage for c9 to have a team in europe now, though it probably means they will need some time to get going. I'm excited to see more international rosters though, maybe it's because there is no big norwegian team, so I want to support international groups. I think if they can get ok placements (top 50%) at the tournaments they are attending this year I think they are well on their way to go places next year.
2020-10-29 09:58
1 reply
#42
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Sweden Lagge15
Apeks are building a Norwegian team. But can't see enough youth players to bring into that roster They will only attend 2-3 events this year, and one of them is NineToFive in which they are already top8 without even entering. That is just a warm-up for them, to see what differs betwen officials and scrims.
2020-10-29 10:04
if this team doesnt qualify for the major and isnt at least top 15 it would be a failure considering the money they pump into it
2020-10-29 10:21
1 reply
#65
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Sweden Lagge15
They won't even try to go for the first major, because the RMR system more or less makes it impossible. But we'll see is top 15 your threshhold? I agree that if they don't get top 15 consistently it is more or less just waste of time, money and talent
2020-10-29 10:39
I agree with you, I really like the approach HenryG took to building the team. Loved listening to him in interviews. However I'm not sold on the lineup really. It could be really good, but it feels like theres a lot of question marks. woxic- beast once lan comes back alex- great IGL floppy- not really sold on him yet. put up good but not great numbers in a really weak NA team, and we've seen players who are better than him struggle since coming back to Europe like Ethan. He very well could pan out tho mezii- i like him as a prospect, but im not sure if hes ready for this yet. Figured he'd go to endpoint or something after gamer legion cuz this is a huge step up es3tag- also not sold on him. he was just a decent role player his entire career save for one online tournament. I'm a little worried c9 jumped on a player who had a lot of hype sooner than they shouldve Would love to hear your thoughts, for sure gonna be an interesting team and i'm excited to watch. LIneup reminds me of OG except with better fraggers
2020-10-29 10:22
1 reply
#66
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Sweden Lagge15
great points and well put You will hear my thoughts I wrote a piece here on HLTV some time ago about this, before Floppy was official, which was sort of a teaser for a post/article I am writing on right now (or rather delayed due to laziness)! hltv.org/forums/threads/2364343/why-c9-c..
2020-10-29 10:41
Bad IGL Tier999 player Not rly good awp Overrated rifler Overrated support This team will struggle for top-50
2020-10-29 10:24
7 replies
#67
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Sweden Lagge15
Bad IGL? He brought LDLC to top 12 and Vitality to top 2 while being 2nd highest rated player in both teams. LDLC dropped to nothingness when he left. You don't get the tier system right? w0xic might be the 5th best AWPer in the world Who is overrated rifler who is overrated support Why do you think that?
2020-10-29 10:43
6 replies
LDLC fluke,Vitality still top2 even after ALEX leaved Mezii never played against tier1 0/8 top5 awps:s1mple,ZywOo,dev1ce,CerQ,broky,also we can include mantuu,SyrsoN, and poizon Floppy Es3tag
2020-10-29 12:26
5 replies
#122
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Sweden Lagge15
Nice Poe's Law usage!
2020-10-29 12:57
4 replies
If you think what you're the greatest analyst and it's undeserved what you don't work in any CSGO tournament operator then you are wrong
2020-10-29 13:16
3 replies
#143
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Sweden Lagge15
Best way to reply to someone calling you a troll is to find a mild Ad Hominem I don't wanna work - this is my hobby
2020-10-29 13:27
2 replies
You did it first in #122
2020-10-29 13:29
1 reply
#149
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
That is not an Ad Hominem #122 explained: Poe's Law is to either troll so nicely that people think you are making a serious, but stupid argument, or by being so increadibly stupid that your comment is mistaken for a troll argument. So no Ad hominem close to it
2020-10-29 13:35
C9 -woxic +snax ez top 1
2020-10-29 10:28
14 replies
#68
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Sweden Lagge15
Funny
2020-10-29 10:43
13 replies
top 5 player 3 years in a row 13 tournaments won rating highest its ever been ez sleeper pick
2020-10-29 10:53
12 replies
#78
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Sweden Lagge15
isn't that the same reasoning that FaZe used when they got Kjaerbye? You do know it is 2020 right? If it wasn't they would've gone for Olofmeister and GuardiaN as well
2020-10-29 10:54
11 replies
Snax is too good to be where his is now literally dunks and carries his team in tier 2/3 can easily play tier 1 CS again around a good team
2020-10-29 10:57
10 replies
#81
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
hltv.org/stats/players/2553/snax?startDa.. I disagree - check what teams he perform against!
2020-10-29 10:59
9 replies
Snax could easily perform at woxics level as an awper way more experience renowned clutcher and impactful player stuck in tier 3 because hes polish and his scene is dead
2020-10-29 11:09
8 replies
#83
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Sweden Lagge15
Then why doesn't he? He has had plenty of opportunities past couple of years
2020-10-29 11:13
7 replies
Never got a good chance to play on a good team left to join Mousesports when VP shit the bed they kicked him after 4 months despite having a higher rating then styko who he replaced and didn't give him alot of time to adapt so he had to rejoin virtus poop who shit the bed harder so his stats dived so no one wanted him unlucky player
2020-10-29 11:24
6 replies
#90
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
So why isn't he performing in Illuminar unless they meet teams they should beat blindfolded?
2020-10-29 11:27
5 replies
he is performing he has a 1.10 rating in illuminar snax only had a 1.05 rating when he was in his peek in VP hard to win when all your team sucks booty
2020-10-29 11:30
4 replies
#94
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
in 2020 he has played 91 maps against teams outside of top 50, and still only manage a 1.10 Against top 50 he got 1.11 in 38, but against top 30 his rating drop significantly. He isn't good enough. Not to mention his insomnia/narcolepsy or w/e it is. As well as his lazy approach to the game. I am even surprised he got a shot in a team like Illuminar
2020-10-29 11:33
3 replies
Snax highest rated player on illuminar literally just lost 2 games since snax was subbed in for cannot win without him rating is worse against higher rated teams since hes on illuminar can't frag and carry when its a 1v9 as well as you can when its a 5v5 his sleeping problem was only an issue once still won many events with it irrelevant to the convo apporach is hardly lazy
2020-10-29 11:41
2 replies
#96
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
Check the stats for his teammates. Their rating rarely change depending on the opponents. So it just looks like Snax is stats-padding against low tier teams, while the rest of the roster is playing to win or to improve. And you really think 1.10 in Illuminar is better than 1.06 in Mousesports?
2020-10-29 11:44
1 reply
Making up lies trying to say that snax doesn't try in illuminar smh snax would easily be better then woxic in a top 5 team because he's doesn't get kicked for being a emotional baby
2020-10-29 11:57
no one should be judging c9 in a negative way considering they haven't played any matches. People had similar thoughts about complexity but they reached great heights with their first new roster.
2020-10-29 10:29
1 reply
#70
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
bUt ThEy LoSt To DoSiA aNd GuArDiAn In An OpEn QuAlIfIeR you can judge it both negatively and positively - however you want - as long as you got some analytics and logic to your judgement #58 is not though, and that is the most common take of the Colossus failing - which is why I made this post - to get other aspects than just that
2020-10-29 10:45
Im worried about that roster: 1.We didnt seen alex since vitality leave 2.woxic was kinda incosistent in mouz 3.i dont really watched mezzii and floopy so idk And how they will work with es3tag. Im wishing the best for them,time will tell
2020-10-29 10:38
3 replies
#71
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
So you're just worried - this is just normal and logical. No need for fans to get emotionally invested yet, since we don't know yet.
2020-10-29 10:46
2 replies
Worried but happy too. I cheering es3tag since heroic debut and its nice to see that he will not sit on bench in astralis. And ofc was curious about alex,he just left good prospering team after a good run
2020-10-29 10:50
1 reply
#121
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
You are not a hater!! You aren't helping me understand all the negativity that was around this roster/project
2020-10-29 12:57
The team is pretty decent and I've been a fan of mezii since LDN esports but the team is not worth such a high price with such high salaries.
2020-10-29 10:45
3 replies
#72
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
makes sense. But at what point do you think it would make sense to pay this much for the roster? Because they had a time limit and had to get players, which made some contracts more expensive than they needed to be if they would have gotten a roster together without Flashpoint getting closer and closer. For instance: FP2 was originally supposed to be in late November and December. But moved 2-3 weeks ahead of schedule due to the Major being cancelled and IEM managing to put in 3 events instead of ESL One Rio
2020-10-29 10:48
2 replies
I was mainly referring to the salaries not the buyouts, I think they are too high and unsustainable in an esport which isn't even financially viable. If they were players of a high caliber then it would make more sense but you can't tell me mezii and es3tag was worth anywhere close to this much (in terms of salary not buyout) a few months ago
2020-10-29 10:55
1 reply
#79
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
Goes for Es3tag's salary as well. They couldn't take more no's so they had to get him no matter what.
2020-10-29 10:55
#84
 | 
Indonesia lukerey
first they should win 9to5 then at least make it into top 4 on flashpoint 2. If they can do both convicingly, i do believe they have a promising future next year. Possibly a consistent top 10 team.
2020-10-29 11:16
3 replies
#85
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
You're not a hater! You misunderstood the premisses :P What would be a failure then? Semi-Finals in NineToFive? 5th in Flashpoint? Being 12th?
2020-10-29 11:20
2 replies
#99
 | 
Indonesia lukerey
They named it colossus for a reason. 6 months without any tier 1 trophy, roster changes incoming.
2020-10-29 12:21
1 reply
#103
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
Colossus is to over time compete with CoL, who should be top 5 contender for a long time. I agree with you, but it is only 2 months left until the player break, and until then it isn't too many events, then it is 2-3 weeks of player-break, and then the ESL Hell schedule begin which makes it hard for them to get events and good teams. 2021 will most likely be a shit season unless LAN can come out soon. No need for anyone like StarLadder to have events in online scene held hostage by MTG
2020-10-29 12:24
I think from whatever i have seen from the players, apart from mezii they will win some matches in the beggining and maybe do some deep runs in some tier2-3 tournaments but eventually if they put the work they should be able to reach top10-15, or they might just start destroying top tier teams because we re close to getting the LAN environment back again in some countries
2020-10-29 11:22
3 replies
#89
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
We just go back to more lockdowns. LAN's is getting more and more postponed. Alex just announced he left the bootcamp due to France going into harsher restrictions. I would be surprised if IEM Global Challenge will be LAN. When do you think they should be top 15? What events do you mean, because they don't got many events they are eligable to play
2020-10-29 11:26
2 replies
They will get some invitations for sure when they announce that they can attend events but for the lockdowns everything is one big clown fiesta to milk the last money left from the economics of the countries, i promise u around new year everything will be working again but top15 is easily reachable in the next lets say 2 months
2020-10-29 11:29
1 reply
#93
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Sweden Lagge15
I doubt it. I have been positive about how quick we would get back to normality. But people are too stupid to get how to limit the spread, and therefore we can't live in a society without restrictions. But sure, it is said that vaccines should be out in about a month and the most important ones will be vaccinated around Christmas. Perhaps that will be enough to get back to reality. But still, check the calendar and tell me what events. But so far it seems like MTG just took the rest of 2020 and the whole 2021 hostage, which means Flashpoint teams rarely will be invited.
2020-10-29 11:31
I also think C9 will be a great team but i'm not so sure. They have a event coming up for them and probbly they are not ready yet. Hopes for them to not fail. btw HengryG is not a good caster.
2020-10-29 12:23
3 replies
#105
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
"Caster of the year 2019" - But I agree They got 2 events in November. Besides that it isn't much.
2020-10-29 12:25
2 replies
I hope them to win Nine to Five crap and after they can go first in Flashpoint 2. I don't know man, they are not ready yet. They just built the team
2020-10-29 12:27
1 reply
#108
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
"time is not a valid excuse" - HenryG I agree with you, but he said they will win and time isn't a factor. but the other stuff happening around the team might affect them more... like Alex leaving the bootcamp I think it is too few events coming up for them to really show off besides Flashpoint, and for that event they will most likely have Ping issues, coms delay due to being split up, and finding role situations and protocols all feel comfortable in
2020-10-29 12:29
#102
 | 
Hungary Karpatia
Success for the new C9 lineup will be winning Nine To Five. Thats it. I doubt they will win events, but I dont think they will be a bad team.
2020-10-29 12:24
1 reply
#107
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
Why though? please put more behind that statement, because I really wanna know why so many say that. If you need inspiration, read my teaser post written right before Floppy was confirmed. hltv.org/forums/threads/2364343/why-c9-c..
2020-10-29 12:27
Imagine a team that never played, already having simps and haters.
2020-10-29 12:47
1 reply
#117
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
that's why I usually say I am a fan of the project and approach, not the team
2020-10-29 12:49
#119
 | 
Finland H0rnPub
Everybody wants them to fail bc it will be the biggest financial disaster,i wudnt hate em top 10, but noway they climb there this year
2020-10-29 12:52
9 replies
#120
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
So you think it is more a wish than a belief? Do you think it might mainly be NA people just being salty about one of their biggest orgs going EU?
2020-10-29 12:55
8 replies
#125
 | 
Finland H0rnPub
I lean to wish, bc majority of this community wants misfortune to others, and there are less serious ppl, who have in-depth prediction about them Cant relate what they feel
2020-10-29 12:59
7 replies
#126
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
Considering FaZe and MIBR have two of the biggest fan bases, I assume it just is "Missery loves company"
2020-10-29 13:00
1 reply
#130
 | 
Finland H0rnPub
Y, it's still feeding itself
2020-10-29 13:02
#128
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
Just saw your flair. Did you read my previous post about Colossus and the small part where I compared it to OG and the ups of Colossus compared to OG?
2020-10-29 13:01
4 replies
#134
 | 
Finland H0rnPub
When OG was unveiled, i believed in it, bc i saw little role conflicts, players form was big question and can aleksi and nbk create allu+zywoo-like awper out of a rookie Colossus has rusty players 2 and unproven igl, but they have astralis workroutine which is interesting
2020-10-29 13:09
3 replies
#141
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
unproven? Top 12 with LDLC were AmanEk was the star and top 2 with Vitality, building a protocol that is used by Vitality and other low tier teams with Star AWP carries.
2020-10-29 13:26
2 replies
#147
 | 
Finland H0rnPub
seems like zywoo show all they way
2020-10-29 13:30
1 reply
#150
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
So how come Vitality was in more finals and more stable with Alex as IGL than with Apex or NBK or Happy as IGL? How come aAa never got better? How come they pay so much money for apEx, Shox and RpK if it is the ZywOo show? They could just pick up players like Djoko almost for free then
2020-10-29 13:36
As all "new" teams, just time will tell... For example: idk how much time took for the Astralis core to reach a solid and stable top5 level. First months will be important to see if the team works with all this new pieces.
2020-10-29 13:03
1 reply
#132
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
Astralis Core has played together for almost all of CSGO
2020-10-29 13:07
I really like the signing of Es3tag. If there was ever an IGL that could make him a star it's gla1ve but Alex is the next best option. I am overall very hopeful :D, i really like the players and cloud9 as an org. But i believe it is poor timing. Though it is good for the economy that you spend money it might not be good for cloud9 especially not if the team fails. It could mean the downfall of could9 as an org. There are a lot of unproven players that are expected to perform on a top 10 level. The expectations and fear of faliure may be there downfall. Was it a good idea to put 2 million down on a player. I also thinks it's a bit wierd they have such a high focus on british cs. Why do they have to be british? I would have liked a bit more of an OG approach bringing in an old legend instead of so much talent. (NBK)
2020-10-29 13:09
3 replies
#138
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
OG was built by the players though, not top-down. I think it is weird they let the lurker and support be the prospects and have the other three be the experienced players. HenryG said "This is most likely the worst time to build a team in CSGO" in a youtube podcast a few weeks ago. I think 2M for Es3tag was because they got turned down for all the players they first wanted. And with Es3tag it means that if Floppy or Mezii doesn't work, they can move him to that role/spot and then get a youngster for more or less ANY role in the roster. So it kinda makes sense from a redundancy perspective. but is that really the way you wanna build a roster? Maybe. But nothing in what you write tell me why people hate the project or why they say "Top 50 maximum"
2020-10-29 13:25
2 replies
Maybe because of the extensive contracts on a risky roster with an unexperienced manager (HenryG)
2020-10-29 13:27
1 reply
#148
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
Isn't Vladyslava Manager for OG? CompLexity's manager left to be a coach in Valorant Fifflaren is DIG's manager (how is that working out?) NATU is ENCE manager (how is that working out?) DEAD was MIBR's manager (how did that work out?) Kasper Hvidt, a former Handball player, is manager for Astralis I can't recall many other managers in top tier CS. But seems to me that it seems better to come from an outside perspective, with insights of the scene, rather than being either from the scene, or just being from the outside.
2020-10-29 13:33
Where to even start with the colossus? My definition for success (short term) is to at least regularly get out of group stage (within first year) with attendance of a major (if actually possible). Why I believe they will get there: HenryG I believe in. Working as a caster I think he has a good read on how teams play, veto, etc. yes, it’s no more info than any coach has access too but my personal belief is HenryG has a bit of an edge considering where he came from. The team they have built seems (as of now) to be top tier though I think they’ll need time to really get firing as a team. Alex - My biggest worry. Doesn’t have the best player in the world to back him up and bit of an unknown quantity. Mezii - seems pretty talented. Don’t know much about him. Woxic - absolute superstar AWP player that’ll be able to carry C9 if/needed. All teams need a competent AWPER. Es3tag - not much is needed about him. Playing incredible at the moment (also Astralis approved) Floppy - again another top notch talent. Concern: Alex not proving himself without Zywoo on his team. I think Alex is top level talent enough but still. will woxic regain his proper form? I’d love to see a 100% firing woxic though I haven’t seen many great performances out of him lately (not a mous fan) Can floppy and mezii perform? Only time will tell I suppose. End of year top 30 ranking prediction: 16th Top ranked player of team: es3tag ‘home map:’ ooh I’m feeling train Permaban: nuke
2020-10-29 13:12
#137
 | 
United Kingdom iXuhi
I think this team, from a business perspective, is awful. They spend $6mn on 3 year contracts for their players, and i am not convinced that they will make that money back, whether this be from tournaments, merch, or whatever. I think the team will be good but i dont think that they will be anything special, sadly. Though i would like to be proven wrong
2020-10-29 13:22
5 replies
#145
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
Great point But 6M over 3 years doesn't sound that bad, right? That would mean 1M per Flashpoint season. They wanna win Flashpoint and then it is just 0.5M per season loss Imagine them going deep in a Blast or Dreamhack Masters, then it has paid back... then you let bonusses get paid by revenue and merch Doesn't sound too bad actually.
2020-10-29 13:30
4 replies
#153
 | 
United Kingdom iXuhi
Look at the teams in flashpoint, BIG, OG, Fnatic and even VP are all favourites and very strong teams right now. I think either BIG or OG will take it, and if they keep inviting big teams like there, C9 do not stand a chance until they get their team chemistry and start performing. The pro competitive scene is as close as it has ever been right now, there is always a new top 1 and so many strong teams. I just dont see a work where this C9 team will be able to do so much. Because who is their main fragger, es3tag? Floppy? I dont think that these players have what it takes to be able to make the top teams lose against them, unless Alex makes a miracle happen.
2020-10-29 14:06
3 replies
#157
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
Why wouldn't they invite the best teams possible if they don't wanna be the best team? I think HenryG, Kassad, the players, Jack Etienne and the org think they already are strong enough to have close series against the three invited teams If they get ran over, they will be seen as a failure
2020-10-29 14:18
2 replies
#164
 | 
United Kingdom iXuhi
I dont think they're ready yet. OG look like a top 5 or even top 3 team at this moment in time, and big look top 5. Fnatic look around top 10 and VP keep on getting better. I dont think this cloud9 "colossus" is ready just yet for teams like these. I like how they entered a weaker tournament such as flashpoint, but i dont think they will do that well now considering there are more tier 1 times involved and these teams are some of the best in the world right now. I think they will get destroyed by OG and BIG and possibly Fnatic, and will have a close-ish game against VP. I think they need at least a top 4 finish here.
2020-10-29 15:01
1 reply
#167
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
So a perfect example to see where you're at and how far you have to go before you're at your "proper place"? Seems great.
2020-10-29 15:09
For me, it's whether they make good use of floppy and whether woxic will be inconsistent or not.
2020-10-29 13:26
3 replies
#146
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
so just worries, no hate nor judgement?
2020-10-29 13:30
2 replies
Yeah, just worries. Most haters are either trolls or are stuck in the past and think that other then old legends don't have skills to make it to T1 with a new team.
2020-10-29 13:49
1 reply
#155
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
or people like #58 who can't manage to keep it coherent enough to explain why they think what they think
2020-10-29 14:08
Even if the team isn't amazing, the amount of hate that people have been giving them is honestly really unjustified. No matches have been played, no tournaments have come and gone. I think Henry really wants C9 to succeed and if he's putting the amount of work in that he's been tweeting about, then atleast a bit of success is worth it
2020-10-29 14:11
1 reply
#159
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
I just wanna get why people have done it. Maybe it is justified. But so far the most vocal haters can't even specify what they are "mad about"
2020-10-29 14:19
This colossus has a potential to be one of the best. Ket we see...
2020-10-29 14:27
1 reply
#168
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
what would you say would be considered a failure?
2020-10-29 17:22
If FaZe's original lineup, the one with Niko, Guardian, olof, rain and karrigan was not a colossus, C9 has no chance of becoming one. It is just a basic example, i mean the players in that FaZe lineup were at the peak of their game, maybe except for olof, and as players they were A LOT better than this C9 lineup. Ok, Alex is a good IGL, i am not going to say that his had succes because of zywoo, and he can be compared to karrigan and its also the case for woxic, who is a very good sniper, maybe as good as guardian was. But the rest cannot be compared. Es3tag is great, but comparing him to niko is absurd RN. Floppy and mezzi are relatively unknown, so stating that C9 is going to be a Colossus is cringe AF.
2020-10-29 14:35
1 reply
#166
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
The difference there is that FaZe always pick players out of rating and skills. Not out of role suitability, personality and having overlapping skill-sets What happened as soon as they stopped listening to their IGL? Wasn't that FaZe #1 in the world when they listened to their IGL and dropped to like 7th or maybe even lower when they stopped listening? So with your logic, this team got possibilty to get to top1 and as long as they keep playing like a team and follow the overall ideas of their approach to the game, they shouldn't drop off...
2020-10-29 15:08
Gambit
1.28
SKADE
3.54
GSG9
3.75
Rise
1.27
MAD Lions
2.48
Virtus.pro
1.56
Bet value
Amount of money to be placed
Winning
Odds total ratio
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