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MOSES SPEAKING FLUENT TRUTH
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Norway CheNaLii 
clips.twitch.tv/ArborealZanyHamWholeWhea.. I agree 100% with moses here! What do you think? TLDR: Moses thinks ESIC was way too nice. He thinks Hunden should be banned for lifetime, niko getting a 1 year ban, and the other heroic players to miss the major
2021-10-20 22:33
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#1
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Kazakhstan SayYouCome
ESIC was way too oh how much money thanks Heroic you are not cheaters btw not fair - niko 1 year and rest only miss 1 major all participated in this farce so all should get equal punishment
2021-10-20 22:35
15 replies
#6
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Norway CheNaLii
but niko knew much more than the rest of the team. even while it was happening the others only knew after it had happened, but they didn't do anything about it
2021-10-20 22:37
1 reply
#106
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Germany TriZiuS
Heroic are only claiming that they only knew it after it happened as ESIC has no evidenc but to believe the rest of the team knew nothing about it and only found out about it when niko told them on TS is pathetic. :D
2021-10-22 11:23
#21
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United Kingdom Socks!
The reason ESIC was more lenient on niko is because hunden kinda manipulated him and they considered that due to niko having adhd and asperger syndrome that his ability to decide from right or wrong wasnt the best, basically hunden is an even bigger asshole than we thought
2021-10-20 22:43
12 replies
Tell me just one sport where the punishment was lowered to 0 because of mental condition. There's non.
2021-10-20 22:52
11 replies
#26
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North America hi_mens))
Just playing devils advocate here, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be taken into context. I do think the punishment was too light despite the context, but we should strive to be better than other sports, not repeat their same mistakes
2021-10-20 22:58
2 replies
Sure, I can understand they lowering the penalty if he really trust people who know, more than what's healthy, but he knew for sure that if you abuse the bug you get and unfair advantage, getting no real penalty at all it's a joke. Same for TeSeS, even if he plays the card that it wasn't suspicious to boost your coach on the middle of nowhere on dust II, he helped Hunden to get inside bug.
2021-10-20 23:41
1 reply
#75
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North America hi_mens))
Yeah, I totally agree. The punishment given is pretty much pointless and only works to damage ESIC's credibility further down the road (as if it needed help).
2021-10-21 08:43
good logic.
2021-10-20 23:32
#77
jks | 
Australia _nuu
out of curiosity, can you tell me when there was a punishment in any sport where it wasn't lowered due to a mental condition
2021-10-21 14:12
4 replies
None? "A lawyer specializing in sports law has not encountered precedents where a player's illness is taken into account in sentencing." "Have you come across cases in e-sports or general sports law where mental state has been mentioned in this way? - No, it is not something I have encountered before that it has been a contributing reason why you have received a lower sports penalty for that reason, he says." "- It looks strange that it ends up with a limited punishment and a limited number of people who are punished when you have such a big and violent case, he says to TV 2 SPORT." sport.tv2.dk/e-sport/2021-10-18-har-aldr..
2021-10-21 14:17
2 replies
#90
jks | 
Australia _nuu
Generalising and saying theres not a single case where a mental condition like aspergers hasn't been taking into consideration is wrong. Not that i have one to show, but you just used this one lawyer. Also he calls this case violent? not sure if that is a mistake in translation but this case is not big in a legal sense or violent at all. You've disregarded all other countries and cases involved with cheating in sports and esports by using one danish lawyer. Law changes across each country and how things are taken into consideration changes depending on each country. Weird quote to use.
2021-10-21 15:04
1 reply
It's a lawyer who is expert in sports law and they presented the ESIC case to him. In sports, you can move the problem to TAS court, so it's the same law in case one of the countries has a misleading part. I have no idea of sports law, but I'm pretty sure that if this guy is an expert on sports law, knows more cases than just the ones happening on his village and he tried to find similar cases over the world with no luck. Coach bug scandal is one of the biggest scandals on esports affecting the integrity of csgo, if you think that a case where a coach use a bug to the benefit of the team, the players know (but forgot to tell anyone), there's another player who knows and goes with it (even if he has mental condition) or another one who is coop to help the coach enter into the bug (even if he says he thought they were having fun) and nothing happens, it's kinda funny. Heroic returned the money from the prize, but that should have been mandatory for all the teams involved on the scandal among other restrictions.
2021-10-21 15:25
if i recall correctly, having a mental illness always lowers the punishment in most countries, dunno if depend on what kind of illness but
2021-10-22 11:13
Hm interesting, in UK law : Section two: Assessing culpability Culpability may be reduced if an offender was at the time of the offence suffering from an impairment or disorder (or combination of impairments or disorders) such as those listed in Annex A. The sentencer should make an initial assessment of culpability in accordance with any relevant offence-specific guideline, and should then consider whether culpability was reduced by reason of the impairment or disorder. Culpability will only be reduced if there is sufficient connection between the offender’s impairment or disorder and the offending behaviour. In some cases, the impairment or disorder may mean that culpability is significantly reduced. In other cases, the impairment or disorder may have no relevance to culpability. A careful analysis of all the circumstances of the case and all relevant materials is therefore required.
2021-10-21 15:14
Such assessments are done in ANY court of law. Thats how mental illnesses are handled nowadays you know?
2021-10-22 11:16
moses so based
2021-10-20 22:34
#3
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India magizhchi
based moses
2021-10-20 22:34
2 replies
#4
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Norway CheNaLii
based af
2021-10-20 22:36
#107
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New Zealand HeNuX_
+1
2021-10-22 11:24
#5
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United Kingdom Socks!
Totally agreed
2021-10-20 22:36
cheaters must be banned from esports forever
2021-10-20 22:37
5 replies
#16
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Denmark Mister_A
then simple should be banned too
2021-10-20 22:41
4 replies
totally agreed!
2021-10-20 22:41
3 replies
#19
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Denmark Mister_A
bruh
2021-10-20 22:41
2 replies
lmao
2021-10-20 23:03
He wants NiKo Top 1 lmao
2021-10-21 18:33
Moses gained my respect which has been already on a high level
2021-10-20 22:37
1 reply
#11
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Norway CheNaLii
same. it somehow went to another level even though i didnt think it would be possible
2021-10-20 22:39
#9
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Australia mrekk
Everyone should get lifetime banned but respect for him knowing that heroic cheated
2021-10-20 22:38
#10
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Poland xMBTx
He forgot to mention that Esic was paid off by heroic, so yeah hes just putting it in nice words
2021-10-20 22:38
2 replies
#13
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Norway CheNaLii
ahhh that explains why esic were so nice to the heroic players
2021-10-20 22:40
#42
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Indonesia lukerey
It's good thing to be based, but not that bold bro. He doesn't want to be sue by esic lol
2021-10-20 23:51
I agree. dunno about the exact numbers but the big picture yes
2021-10-20 22:39
1 reply
#15
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Norway CheNaLii
yeah the numbers was just something he made up on the spot, but just to prove his point
2021-10-20 22:40
Moses is right, with the competition this high and all the prize money you can't do some small punishments
2021-10-20 22:40
1 reply
#18
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Norway CheNaLii
exactly. if the punishment was harsher then it would make it an example to everyone else. no tolerance for any cheating
2021-10-20 22:41
Yes. Would've been great. Sadly, esic is just a pure useless nothing.
2021-10-20 22:42
#22
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Portugal W!LDF1RE
Other Heroic players aren't proven to be involved. CadiaN even has a recording of his comms during One of those games (his words on the Heroic vídeo). Idk if they are innocent or not,but don't want to punnish them if they are. If they did it I'm agreeing with you though
2021-10-20 22:43
4 replies
#23
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Norway CheNaLii
there is proof but according to ESIC it wasnt enough to punish them. but at the same time the heroic players in the video said they were told hunden had cheated a couple hours after the astralis game, but didn't do anything about it except telling hunden to not do it again. imo the players should have reported it ASAP
2021-10-20 22:47
3 replies
To whom should they have reported to??? Like Cadian said Valve doesn't do shit anyway and they somehow didn't know that ESIC even existed and was the place to report so they had nowhere to report it. Bro imagine u being in their place for 10 mins and u will get a much better picture.
2021-10-21 06:17
1 reply
The TOs? Match admins? His own fucking org? The internet? Twitter? Valve isn't the only redressal system. These are professional players. Not amateurs. flair checks out btw
2021-10-22 11:11
#97
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Portugal W!LDF1RE
Afaik there ESIC doesn't have any Proof on the remaining Heroic players
2021-10-21 19:51
He is correct, there should have been harsher punishments. They got a little slap on the wrist. I think ESIC purposely didn’t ban them because how bad it would make the t1 scene look. The players knew about Hunden. Cadian on the stream, you could tell he was leaving stuff out and rambling on about BS details, can tell from his body language he was lying and nervous. Reminds me of the Astros cheating situation. They cheated for 3 years and when they got caught, they got no punishment at all. Just a slap on the wrist.
2021-10-20 22:47
4 replies
#40
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Lithuania trippens
they didn't even get a slap on the wrist lmfao, literally no punishment at all
2021-10-20 23:48
3 replies
Yeah you’re right. I was just referring to slap on the wrist due to them losing all their sponsors Im pretty sure and getting a lot of shit from people.
2021-10-21 00:12
2 replies
#61
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Lithuania trippens
yeah fair enough, i just thought you considered the "lectures" or whatever that esic said niko has to listen to be worthy of being called a slap on the wrist lmao
2021-10-21 01:08
1 reply
Yeah I didn’t hold ESIC to do anything especially since the whole MDL throwers situation has yet to come out yet. Like they forgot about it.
2021-10-21 03:55
#28
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Denmark valt3rr
Bro i'm surprised that stavn, cadian, teses and borup didn't get punishments. But for their punishment to be missing this major would just be stupid. What about borup??? He isn't even at the major. If there should be a punishment it should be the same for everyone of those 4
2021-10-20 23:06
Obviously there is some sort of secret deal between heroic and esic that involved using niko as an escape goat
2021-10-20 23:07
2 replies
#50
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India spiderCAKE
+1
2021-10-21 00:45
+1
2021-10-21 14:20
The moment that really exposed their blatant corruption was when Ian Smith said HUNDEN's claim of "if I try to appeal I get 5year ban" was false, and it was ACKCHYUALLY that "he can appeal but if it's denied the ban becomes 5 years" 🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓 HUNDEN was right, ofc blatant corrupt ESIC ain't gonna do shit about his side of the story
2021-10-20 23:18
7 replies
Wait did they go out and say that? I saw the hunden part. Not the other shit tho
2021-10-20 23:27
2 replies
On HLTV confirmed with Ian Smith, doubt the podcasters want to attack the man giving them (false) info so obv they ain't gonna call it out
2021-10-21 00:37
1 reply
After how Esic fucked over Robban I lost all respect for them. They find one good thing, and fumble the ball.
2021-10-21 00:43
#35
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United States burzeus
+1
2021-10-20 23:32
ESIC is a shitty organisation that needs excuses to justify their existence, welcome to modern capitalism and the commercialisation of counter strike.
2021-10-21 01:04
1 reply
anybody with over 4iq can see though the bullshit
2021-10-21 03:47
Ian Smith said that he could appeal and an independent committee would decide. He only said that if he himself were on the committee he would give him 5 years. Get your facts right
2021-10-22 11:11
Totally right
2021-10-20 23:29
#33
JW | 
Sweden EntonXD
Why should heroic be handled to higher standards than other teams? other t1 teams had cheating coaches. why would Cadian be penalized whne other players should also be in that case?
2021-10-20 23:30
5 replies
#51
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India spiderCAKE
Because of the extra evidence that came out in Heroic's case. You're free to blow the whistle on any other teams/players/org who abused the coach bug if you have any dirt on them.
2021-10-21 00:48
4 replies
#53
JW | 
Sweden EntonXD
what other evidence except that niko knew?
2021-10-21 00:50
3 replies
#55
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India spiderCAKE
All the evidence that Hunden provided. Hunden has no incentive to lie because he knows that his career in CS is over. Also, at first, it was nobody on the team knew. Then the story changes to only niko knew. I call bullshit on that. Everyone on heroic knew. The coach, the players, the org, the CEO. They were all in on it. They don't even address how Heroic retained hunden as an analyst despite the shitstorm.
2021-10-21 00:53
2 replies
#58
JW | 
Sweden EntonXD
hes got all incentive to lie as hes fighting a legal battle in denmark and had a chance to not be banned. how do you know the whole team were in on it..? they retained hunden as they believe one time of cheating wasnt enough to kick him, they believe in second chances. the heroic players havent said that niko didnt know too. Youd rather trust someone whos contradicted himself both to esic and publicly instead of those that worked with esic since day 1?
2021-10-21 00:57
1 reply
#99
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India spiderCAKE
Not be banned? Okay. But which org is gonna risk hiring him now? He colluded with the org and then sold them out. >how do you know the whole team were in on it..? Because there's no reason to retain a cheater like HUNDEN if he was a lone wolf. >they believe in second chances. LOL excuses. That's funny cuz plenty of other coaches were out of a job after the coach bug fallout. Rejin from mouz comes to mind instantly. I'll say it again. HUNDEN took the fall for the org, the players and for himself and kept his job and later was reinstated. Things later went south between them for whatever reason with that strat-sharing thing and HUNDEN was kicked and sued. Therefore, he had no reason to cover for them anymore. This is basic logic if you know how to put two and two together.
2021-10-22 11:04
Is there even any report from ESIC on which grounds the decisions were made. The video Heroic posted was only word against word kind of arguments. I don't think all the Heroic players were genuinly ignorant or aware of what Hunden was doing as there were no reason to believe so but still had been nice to see some solid evidence apart from these guys in Heroic all backing up each other with similar story.
2021-10-20 23:31
3 replies
#38
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Norway TheDEA
esic.gg/content/media/2021/10/Heroic-Rep.. They were at the very least informed after the first incident, they should have reported it to be 100% free of guilt. I'm not here to argue about the decision. But I think my elementary school teacher had better investigations than ESIC
2021-10-20 23:44
1 reply
#52
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India spiderCAKE
+1
2021-10-21 00:50
My point. It is funny how it turn to nobody knew about the cheat to niko knew. And borup knew that bug exist, but teses, starn and cadian not fuckjng clue.
2021-10-20 23:50
feels like the ESIC dudes hate hunden so much they wanted to not punish heroic players just to spite him like ah you wanted to take down people with you look we won't do shit lmaoooo
2021-10-20 23:45
#44
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Poland xMBTx
Can Hunden make public evidence he gathered?
2021-10-21 00:17
8 replies
#46
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New Zealand Chicken_RD
I don't see why not. What are they going to do? Ban him again?
2021-10-21 00:25
1 reply
#48
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Poland xMBTx
He should public everything and make community judge proofs That would make him a statue #GOD HUNDEN
2021-10-21 00:40
#56
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India spiderCAKE
He should.
2021-10-21 00:54
1 reply
#63
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Poland xMBTx
Oh yeah But he said only if we gonna call him GOD HUNDEN from now on. I think its a clear deal for us to agree
2021-10-21 01:09
If it was actually compelling or held up to any evidentiary standard he would have made it public
2021-10-21 04:07
1 reply
+1
2021-10-21 04:15
#87
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Norway CheNaLii
he should reveal it if its possible. would reveal if his claims are all BS or if the players are guilty as well. then the community would have been able to judge for themselves
2021-10-21 14:40
1 reply
#89
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Poland xMBTx
and then we would make a statue for GOD HUNDEN and make HUNDEN honor president of CS:GO sitting in golden lounge eating caviar
2021-10-21 14:49
8/8 take !
2021-10-21 00:24
Agree valve literally gave ESIC something to make heroic core look innocent Cause it would be so bad for them company.They would have loose so many sponsors Just imagine a game that the PL winners are bunch of cheaters
2021-10-21 00:52
#57
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United States GameZ_iwnl
I actually don't think niko should've gotten a year, maybe 6 months at most. If anything the verbal warning was probably enough to scare him
2021-10-21 00:55
People want harsh bans for Heroic just for using a bug that is the tournament organisers fault, yet no one complains about s1mple cheating in tournaments.
2021-10-21 01:01
3 replies
#85
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Norway CheNaLii
s1mple cheating in tournaments? if not bait then please explain
2021-10-21 14:38
2 replies
Happened very long ago, it was an ESL wire ban and then he tried to ban evade…
2021-10-21 15:35
I can't post links I think, but google "Please, stop saying s1mple was banned in 1.6" it's a reddit thread but it has plenty of links and evidence including to an HLTV thread. But the gist of it is as follows; s1mple cheated in an ESL tournament in 2013, he beat the best players at the time like NBK, shox and ANGE1. He then played in an ESL qualifier and blatantly cheated, this is where his old ESL account was discovered which was banned for cheating, so his ban was extended for evasion. However it was an ESL wire ban, so he was never banned from other tournaments, flipsid3 had s1mple in their team but for majors used a substitute due to s1mple being banned from ESL tournaments still (in 2015).
2021-10-22 06:21
When Fnatic and heroic use bug exploit people call for their heads but Astralis uses smoke bug for years and no one cares interesting mental gymnastics.
2021-10-21 01:08
4 replies
That wasn't a bug though, it was a literal setting in the game that anyone could use
2021-10-21 04:05
1 reply
Stop making excuses valve after patching it literally themselves called it a bug. Others who call it a bug are pro cs players and faceit level 10 players.
2021-10-21 04:28
"astralis" hahahaha Every single player was doing it, astralis were just the best.
2021-10-21 14:41
1 reply
That's not the point the point is no one should be using any sort of bug or exploit to get an advantage in the game. If people hate on Heroic then they should also be hating on Astralis cuz everyone else was also using coach bug.
2021-10-21 18:31
Moses is right, I like that he is outspoken in his views. Heroic org and the players should have been dealt in a rather drastic way. The players and the org have such a stain on than which won't ever wash away no matter what they accomplish. They won't get sponsors, they won't get the fan support. I can honestly see them rebranding or maybe even disbanding.
2021-10-21 01:12
imo niko should get at least 2 years, hunden lifetime ban and heroic as an org should be severely punished
2021-10-21 03:58
Imo should be HUNDEN lifetime but leave niko's punishment as is + give the rest of the Heroic players that same punishment and also lifetime ban for the management who tried to get players to sign an NDA about the cheating (so any org employing any of those people cannot compete in partner events) In reality though with what HUNDEN has done now he basically has lifetime banned himself from ever working in esports again just by virtue of being completely and utterly untrustworthy. No org will hire him now after this, just for fear of being fucked over like Heroic
2021-10-21 04:04
+1
2021-10-21 04:08
ye hes wrong, you see heroic didnt cheat, their coached used a bug, even coach didnt cheat, he just found a bug, probably even took few rounds to realise that was he doing its illegal, then he could have hidden it for a while from players even when players realised ok what our coach doing is illegal, they cant just go and rat out everyone what do i know maybe hunden has some sort syndrome and would kill me if i do that ( which he probably does)
2021-10-21 08:46
1 reply
#83
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Norway CheNaLii
hunden knew what he was doing. maybe not the first time but later on he got boosted by teses to use the bug. if that is not intentionally using the bug then idk. also the team should have reported it when they got to know about it the first time, the second best time would be the next time hunden did it
2021-10-21 14:33
It all sounds good, but if they did, people would complain why only Heroic would be banned and not the other teams. It went so far just because HUNDEN is a bigger bastard than the other coaches.
2021-10-21 14:26
#81
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Denmark HypaboliK
based
2021-10-21 14:27
I agree with moses
2021-10-21 14:29
naa, moses is wrong to say this imo. imo every team that was caught using the coachbug should be banned from the major. banning only heroic makes no sense at all. this might have killed csgo since almost all the top teams were caught, but i dont give a fuck. fuckem all.
2021-10-21 14:35
Is moses speaking an outdated electronical communication device? cuz he's speaking fax
2021-10-21 14:40
#92
k1to | 
Canada rsk-_x
The reason I agree with moses is because Cadian should have reported this, or the team should have come clean about it the first instance. It would have brought credibility to the players and the organization if they took the right steps. Instead they will be defending their integrity for a long time to come because they kept their mouths shut and it happened a second time. It happened a second time because no one spoke up.
2021-10-21 15:15
#103
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Greece Graecos
100%. No mercy for cheaters
2021-10-22 11:14
Nah, I disagree. Moses is way too nice as well. They should apply a death sentence - no mercy for xiters.
2021-10-22 11:21
Agree
2021-10-22 11:26
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