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let me correct his statement.
Gla1ve = greatest IGL of all time overall
Karrigan = best IGL currently
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Until someone elevates a team to a 4 major, a grand slam, and literally changed the way the game is played -- do not ever put gla1ve's name next to anyone.
Surely Karrigan is the best IGL right now, but pay your damn respects to the old gods.
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well said
Old gods? I mostly agree with your statement but Karrigan has been playing pro cs for well over a decade lol
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He was a pro when I played 1.6 that was before 2010...
EDIT:
He's been a pro since 2006
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So if we go by your logic, that puts chrisJ and any other pros still playing from 1.6 era as GOAT material. What a big brain take holy fxk
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his point was: karrigan has been playing for over a decade, so he is considered as good as gla1ve 2018-2019.
he literally made "playing long enough" a literal criteria to become goated, what the hell other point are you trying to get into here lmao.
Also, bongJ is bongJ. Its the honest truth, not a disrespect. A disrespect is like this: chrisJ is t2 at best(which is only an example, in case you are dense)
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he said he mostly agrees with the fact gla1ve is better the point was you said dont disrespect old gods (gla1ve) and he just said karrigan is well known name from 1.6 times is much older and plays much longer so if somebody should be called old god than its karrigan not gla1ve...
THAT IS THE POINT
flag checks out
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old gods LMFAO
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lets just say
gla1ve 4 majors, grand slam, made an era, and changed the game(tactical structures)
karrigan 1 major, 2/4 grand slam, and multiple event win on different rosters
Even if you ask your dog, they'd easily recognize who's way more decorated. Putting timelines is just asking for a stupid argument. There was a time when karrigan is dogshit like gla1ve is now and its a hell lot stinkier that what gla1ve's going through.
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who tf cares karrigan got kicked from astralis cause he was not good enough and gla1ve took his place and won 4 majors
gla1ve has almost only played with 1 core since he joined astralis
karrigan best igl rn
gla1ve best igl of all time
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Why would you need more than one core to settle yourself as one of the greatest IGL's and also win everything possible? Just because karrigan has been succesful with different lineups/cores doesn't make him the greatest of all time. Yes, is he ONE of the greatest of all time, but not THE greatest. I'd still put two or three IGL's over him only due to the fact that they have been more consistent.
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i dont know if you commented on the wrong comment because u just agreed with me but yes playing with different cores doesn't matter i agree and karrigan is not close to gla1ve
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ur good lol
its just a bit ironic considering my username haha
karrigan won trophies with tsm ( astralis core ), he didnt manage to win with astralis but was the same team, diff org, gla1ve did way better on astralis with that core, after dev1ce left they won nothing, karrigan won with 3 different teams a lot of tournments was not just lucky runs. For gla1ve to be the best for me he has to prove himself with this astralis roster at least.
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All you did is add another criteria to surpass the current GOAT achievements. You just unconsiously admitted gla1ve is the GOAT lmao dont make it hard to yourself.
If you read again, i said that until someone goes above and beyond to what gla1ve achieved then its the only time they can challenge the GOAT title. Its honestly impressive enough that karrigan is attempting this and i actually root for him.
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You only came to that conclusion because someone already did the standard criteria of being IGL GOAT: Winning multiple majors, grand slam, and dominate into an era. Then you added: Win with multiple teams to become the IGL GOAT.
Come one, man. You just added a new box to check lol. Give credit to the first IGL and just proclaim the dude. You won't even begin to think like that if not for gla1ve doing what we did, do you realize that?
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Since when did winning with multiple teams/roster became a damn criteria to become GOATED? I'll tell you when: Since gla1ve won all the "standard" criteria.
Do you people realize that you're downplaying the achievements gla1ve did? Is winning multiple majors, a grand slam, make an era, and change the game an everyday thing? What is wrong with you people lmao get it straight man.
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isn't winning with multiple different rosters proof that you are a great IGL? if you can't win with different rosters doesn't that tarnish your skill as an IGL? if gla1ve manages to find success with this new core I would happily swallow my words but to me karrigan is the goat IGL
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That igl won 4 majors and a grandslam using absolute dominance and made an era. So far, karrigan is only set to make a grandslam and we all know its not set in stone. Do you think this kind of conversation would even happen back in Astralis' era? Yeah, until we can do the same with karrigan's faze, its still glaive's throne.
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No but I dont think Glaive gets the credit in any similar fashion, he had 4 super stars, a top 3 awper, 2 top 15 riflers and a man who would win any clutch.
He was able to lead a single team of super stars yes. But thats it, he cannot lead anyone else in any similar fashion to any success.
Compared to karrigan who won titles with fucking ChrisJ and Woxic
He made 4 different lineups into title winners, Glaive got 1. He isnt that good of a leader, he only had the perfect pieces
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If we go by that design, karrigan at one point also had a "superstar" lineup but crumbled. Also, Astralis 2018-19 never was a team of superstars lol its just sheer team coordination and guess who's on the helm.
The criteria for winning championships on multiple rosters only became a hot topic because someone already did the "usual" criteria to be goated(multiple majors, grandslam, and dominate an era). Now, apparently, you also have to win on another roster like wtf lmao like changing the game wasn't enough huh.
All you people do is just add a "checklist" to the already known checklist for GOAT status. You only came to that conclusion because gla1ve did a feat not seen before, give credit when its due man.
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I would say a team with 5 top 15 players is pretty much a super star team
A top 2 awper
2 top 10 riflers
A clutch minister that WOULD WIN the 1vX, not could like shox or perfecto but actually would consistently
Ofc Gla1ve was a huge part and his brilliance needs to be credited.
But you cant deny that making multiple rosters into title contenders isnt much more indicative of your ability to lead than being able to do that with only 4 very specific players
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no hes not xD
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gla1ve of course, it's just his minions isn't up to snuff right now
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he has blamef and k0nfig if he was the best igl rn he would at least make it out of challenger stage
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Farlig is still relatively new to the team and building a team takes longer than people think and Xyp9x is lost right now, think his role is colliding with blameF somehow
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sure not saying it's a contender level team but if he was the best igl rn he could do more with it
There you go, Glaive isnt good enough as an IGL to make a system around them, Karrigan managed to made 4 star players play together in Faze 2017/18.
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Dude, Farlig is new and Xyp plays like he's washed up.. fixable things but integrating a new player and especially an AWPer takes time even for the best
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Nonsense, he just isnt good at making a new system, he knows how to play one way and thats it.
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new team lol. Karrigan has won huge tournaments with standins. AST didn't even change that much stuff to revolve around their new player.
The magisk IGL without an awper and bubzkji is better than the current astralis.
Even NIP made top 8, changing lots of stuff for brollan to come in.
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One day you may realize the nuances that makes a team really tick because it's not as easy as you appear to believe, from a pure firepower perspective then Brollan is definitely an instant upgrade whereas downgrading from Device to a Lucky and now Farlig while having a lackluster Xyp9x in the mix trying to find his place in a new core. Time will tell, we all have our different opinions but I know they'll grow a lot better as they get more coherent.
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Blamef and konfig were the firepower replacement and surely glave could have decided to keep bubz instead of xyp if he wanted.
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bubz instead of xyp would indeed be an improvement as of right now, but who knew Xyp wouldn't get back to his old self? I personally believe that blameF scoops up the frags usually left for Xyp, their roles/playstyle may conflict!?
I would take broky, ropz and twistzz anytime over fartlig, baitF and xyp9x
tf you talking about? he calls some really poor T sides
His minions? k0nfig and blame are top talents lmao.
Aleksib
aleksib bestest igl?
Ok but its all with the same core, the same team, the same coach, Karrigan has taken multiple international teams and made them winners, some of them in the middle of the Astralis era.
Look at Glaive now, now he doesnt that have that lineup he cant do anything, he cant even build a team.
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Ok then go elsewhere make an international line-up, no there is always talent out there you just have to find it, Glaive has never had to find talent a build a team, he walked right into a team with one of the best entries, one of the best awpers, the best clutch and support player and the only piece that changed was Kjaerbye for Magisk.
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I dont know I mean if you look at the games they lost go and look at them Device would disappear, I'm not kidding Device at one point was known as a choker I think it might have been the psychologist they started seeing.
He won more with one team and one core lineup, and it was a team that was already built for him, he's never had to build his own team.
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I did, I cant know for sure but what is likely the case is their age, Device is 26 now, he was about 20 when Karrigan played with him as was clearly not as mentally strong and also you dont know Astralis wouldnt have won the 2017 major with Karrigan you cant know that no one can.
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So how do you know they can win all 4 majors with Karrigan? All your claims are based on unjustified assumptions, mental this mental that, broky is 21 years old right now, so one year old difference makes broky more mentally stable to win the major? Just shut up please and look at the facts
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Yes it does 1 year more of experience can make a huge difference also different people are different, some people are natural born winners at age 18 some people arent, it takes more time, Device was known as a choker so was Xyp9x, but glaive has never made a team, that team just needed its players to mature and they would have won.
The reason they couldn't win with karrigan is because they were big chokers. They were still big chokers with gla1ve until they hired a sports psychologist and worked on the mentality aspect of the game. They basically brought this aspect to CS and allot of other teams adopted this after Astralis won their first major.
I'm not saying they would have won with karrigan, but saying that he was the sole reason is also disingenuous imo.
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They also forget this, who did TSM have to compete with in 2015? Fnatic, trying to win anything in that era was a fucking task, in 2016 SK existed but they werent what Fnatic were, same as in 2017 it was much more wide open for people to win.
A great team in 2015 might win nothing a good team in 2017 could have a shot at a few titles.
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Very true, the TSM karrigan was fucking great. They won several finals vs fnatic and was the number one team for a short time. The majors were disappointing for them though and I think it was time for a change when they added gla1ve. Somehow people still think the team was a total failure with karrigan, which is just silly.
It worked tho??? They were a title contender under peak fnatic. And they weren't that good until karrigan joined. It took glaive joining an already title contender to make it good. And then a beast magisk that slot right in, into the core that karrigan already created + glaive to actually make it really good.
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Glaive has like 4 more tournament wins than karrigan, he doesn't win much more
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Hey kid I never said majors are not important I just said he doesn't win much more
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And talking about finding talents, Brody is the only talent and it’s not found by karrigan, the others, ropz, twistzz and Rain are all T1 professional players for a long time, sure karrigan invited ropz to join but that doesn’t mean he find him, you think it’s possible for gla1ve to invite some non-danish pros to join and learn danish
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But he made them into better players, thats the point.
He's built teams from the ground up and made them into winners time and time again, Glaive has never built a team he walked into a team ready to win.
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Ok look at the game they played watch them, Karrigans calling was never the issue it was players going missing.
hltv.org/stats/matches/mapstatsid/26706/..
hltv.org/stats/matches/mapstatsid/23351/..
You also have the age factor, Device in 2015 under Karrigan was 19-20, very young, he wasnt the same player as he was 2 years later.
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No, thats not what I said I said the players within the team needed time to mature.
In 2015 Device was 19/20, Dupreeh was 22, Xyp was 20 and the other player was CajunB, who even in 2015 wasnt that great.
No point changing teams when the thing your doing is working. Its like faze changing teams right now after winning the major. Like your point doesn't make sense.. Also gla1ve doesn't have much of a say on choosing teams, unlike karrigan and pretty much every igl. Astralis org pretty much decides everything
It was zonic + gla1ve. Where as its alone karrigan leading different international orgs with his talented calls
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robban isnt useless lmao
but zonic is way way better tactical coach than robban
glaive hasn't done shit outside of zonic tho, whereas karrigan has won tourneys under other coaches.
he wasnt even at the major they had some guy who doesnt play cs as stand in coach
karrigan don't take much help from robban, where as gla1ve day and night suck zonic dick to find ways and make strats :D
all time sure, now not a chance
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cap
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this is the worst time to imply someone is a better igl than carrygun
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KEKW
I think they're pretty equal
Yeah its not really a question unless you're biased against Astralis and have an irrational loveboner for Karrigan.
A more rational loveboner for Karrigan is
'He's one of the GOAT IGLs, and he is unarguably the greatest IGL of all time in regards to nurturing players and utilising them to their fullest. In terms of achievements and tactical ability/calling relative to his era(s) he's clearly behind Gla1ve'
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I'd rather have karrigan in my team than gla1ve tbh.
How is he? Karrigan has done it with multiple teams that all play differently, I mean do you know how hard it is to make space for 2017 rain, Niko and Guardian and have some kind of system work.
He then goes to Mouse sports, we all knew how talented Ropz was but he played so much better under Karrigan. Woxic hasnt looked anywhere near as good as he did playing with Karrigan, Frozen also looked so much better under Karrigan.
Lets take other stars, Niko in 2017 and 2018 had a rating of 1.23 and 1.22, he has only just managed to get back to that level in the last year, he hasnt broken 1.2 rating since playing with Karrigan.
The best example is rain, Rain under Karrigan was a godly player, he then after Karrigan left got worse and worse and now hes a fucking major MVP.
Karrigan has done it with so many teams, so many different players so many different styles, era's, coaches and so on
Lets also look at this, when Karrigan had the TSM lineup who was he competing with Fnatic, he beat Fnatic more than they beat him.
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Mousesports was built around karrigan. Karrigan was the first player to get signed. He decided the team and how he wanted to play. Faze was also a super team, they were built to dominate signing the best players in the world, didn't matter how good he called called half the team was dead just by individual duels. TSM you can compare. Karrigans style and ways of calling weren't working and weren't efficient, that's why gla1ve was brought it and they had instant success and won the major after four months. Gla1ve needs to work with what is given to him, but karrigan can choose who he wants to play with because astralis is a scummy org
All time: Gla1ve
Today: Karrigan
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-1
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get a brain ruski
GL@1VE 4 major
Karrigan 1 major
still respect both of them. legends in the game!
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Karrigan made multiple teams the best and or winners, Glaive has made one.
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karrigan made many teams the best and winners because he got the chance to work with many teams because he was booted off of teams so many times
glaive has been with astralis because why would you, in you are in your right mind kick the IGL because of who Astralis dominated 2018 and 2019.
very unfair comparison everybody has different circumstances
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not true, glave played in many teams before astralis, and they were all underwhelming
this guy is not even a fan of gla1ve
this guy is just like a rat to ruin the celebration to faze lmao
GOATigan can take any random mix and make them competitive, glaive without the Astralis core can't get any results
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also remember that karrigan made the core of astralis to stars.
Took shit team to major
Got 2nd at blast showdown, lost to Ence who’s top 3.
Made playoffs at EPL
3rd at blast fall final
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while device won iem fall with glaive :))
Do remember, blast showdown has literally 8 teams, and many teams were preparing for major.
Blast fall final was well-known for the cheating crowd and its a very obvious honeymoon period.
Playoffs at epl with that group is fucking easy. Imagine only needing to win AGO, complexity and EG to get to playoffs.
Bait thread but this community is pretty pathetic. When Astralis lose it's Glaive's fault, when Faze loses it's never Karrigan's fault but the "star" players underperformed.
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this ^
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So what? He deserved to be praised. He literally won them THEIR first major after Karrigan kept failing with the same players. Just like karrigan is being praised now. And I don't have a problem with people criticizing gla1ve but what about when karrigan loses? Crickets. Karrigan literally gets to hand pick who he plays with. He is like the PSG of CS. Literally buys the best players possible and finally won a major after a million failures but when he loses he is never criticized like gla1ve or even other IGLs for that matter. The double standard is staggering.
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Bro what. Karrigan made ropz play a lot better, you can check the stats of ropz with karrigan in mouz and without. Broky best player? Few years ago was a no namer. Twistzz one of the top aimers but def not one of the best players, there is a lot of better riflers atm. And rain wasn’t performing at all after karrigan left faze. To call all 4 players “best players” is a strech, you could make a case for ropz only as imo he is the only superstar of this team right now
One of the reason why astralis is garbage team right now is unarguably horrible calling from gla1ve.
and it is not only mid round calling but horrible setups he has blamef and konfig (mechanically really good players) and failing to make it to the legends at major
also ''when Faze loses it's never Karrigan's fault but the "star" players underperformed.''
thats pure BS lol
whenever faze fails its always karrigan's fault
different scenarios (rain had an off day, broky was missing his shots, ropz underpeformed)
but no, karrigan has lowest rating (0.05 lower than star player while playing hard entry role and garbage ct spots) = its his fault
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Probably the biggest BS i've ever read. Xyp9x and lucky are literally useless on t sides not to mention lucky is inexperienced af. Konfig is inconsistent af and blameF is not in a position to have major impact regardless of his mechanics because he is there to close rounds. If the other players fail to put him into those positions, he will never get a chance to have impact. Go ahead and try to call and compete at a high level when you have this type of dysfunction going on in your team. And no Karrigan's CALLING was never blamed for Faze's failing only his performance, but not his CALLING. /close
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If dysfunction is going on its 90% fault of gla1ve LOL. konfig has 1.25 impact vs top 20 (last 3 month) (while rain has 1.20 btw) its gla1ve's fault if he cant use k0nfig properly.
blamef is clearly baiting and its also gla1ve's fault
blamef isnt baiting because he wants to but because it is gla1ve's call
glaive achieved trophies only in Astralis roster, but Karrigan made top tier every team he played. I dont think glaive could have won EPL with mouz roster but Karrigan did.
It doesnt matter the roster he is playing with for karrigan, but look at new Astralis right now.
my opinion...
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Mousesports literally had Ropz, 2 young guns and ChrisJ and he won EPL with them, beating Astralis no less. Karrigan managed to mold woxic and Frozen into star players. Look at how far woxic especially has fallen off with different IGLs.
Magisk, Dupreeh and Device were all star players before Glaive joined Astralis, so was Kjaerbye. The idea that Karrigan always has star players but Astralis never did is basically saying that Magisk, Dupreeh and Device are maybe slightly above average at best.
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star players =/= insane players
dupreeh magisk, kjearbye are good, but they are not even in the discussion when it comes to raw skill compared to twistzz, ropz or niko...
Karrigan comes it, teams does not so good (expected for new roster), things turns around, they win something, then they drop off. karrigans pattern
no one cares, let FaZe enjoy their win
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lol why
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hltv.org/matches/2326427/natus-vincere-v.. Top fragging in the final, 1.15 rating in entire tournament considering igling. Please never comment on anything if you have no clue about the game. Glaive is the greatest of all time no doubt.
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1/8 1/8 1/8
it s like messi vs ronaldo.
1 with all the achivements with barcelona other with different teams. they are both great.
karrigan can take a bunch of randoms and make them competitive. gla1ve could only win with prime device and magisk. gla1ve needs to do more with k0nfig and blamef, two absolute fucking beasts.
karrigan>gla1ve
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So 3 cracked bozos on ur team aint enough?
zeus number 1
ratio
Still don't understand why everyone's hyping him up xd
Not like all the decisions during a round are made by just 1 person.
0/8
obviusly aleksib is the greatest igl but glave and karrigan make good top 2 and 3.
Karrigan is the best igl right now no doubt, but he is also the best igl when it comes to stand-in and winning.
True, if you watch CS since 2017.Otherwise, far away from true
Karrigan #1 Gla1ve took a contender and made them number 1. Karrigan took 2 contenders and made them the best. Gla1ve hasn't been able to adapt and people forget before Astralis he was a nobody. Karrigan seems to be able to bring a team up to their peaks.
Both are the 2 best though
lets see what glaive wins the next few years without the "dream team".
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karrigan got the 98 bulls wtf
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Magisk was playing like god in pgl antwerp tho. And hes versatile and multi role player. He can entry, he can clutch, he can do some calling. He has sick aim and movemennt and reads opponents well. He can anchor sites etc has expierence. While I like dupreeh but he seemes tobe washed.
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