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Actually a fair point made by HooXi here:
pley.gg/news/hooxi-criticizes-blast-esl-..
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csgo pro scene was almost never profitable except some rare teams
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I think everyone understands it, but we just don’t care about the money, we just want the best matches and no stupid formats
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This system is not applying in football and this is the biggest sport in the world. Just invite the best teams from the previous event or use a standardized ranking to determine the invites. The NFL, NBA system is really stupid if u think about it from a competitive way. No relegation, the teams are intentionally losing to get a higher draft pick, etc.
No, the people who complain about this want a competitive scene, which is fair. There is no objective right or wrong here, it is about priorities.
We could have a thriving scene that is competitive and doesn't give auto-invites to shit teams that don't deserve to be there, but orgs fucked it up by increasing their spending way quicker than the scene developed so now everything's inflated, unprofitable, and will crumble down soon
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They're the most competitive leagues because there is no alternative, not because the franchise system is such a great system.
Any team outside the franchise is screwed and has no(or very limited) way in, that's not competitive. Competitive is when there is a flow for teams in and out based on merit(aka how good a team is), not based on money
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Big +1, imo the best solution is for Valve to intervine more in the circuit. Imagine having a Pro League, but there are also leagues for every region and a relegation/promotion system. The old ESEA/ESL system was similar to that, prior to partner teams which should qualify anyways if they are good enough.
+1
people complain about closed circuits and shit, but teams like Astralis, Liquid, OG etc attract viewership. We saw how the Outsiders - Heroic final did in Rio
this is corporate argument 101 because they leave out a part that says it gives most money TO THEM.
Because they get parts of those contracts.
Actual competitive CS at the top of its level is what would bring the highest viewership and the most money - just not all of that money would go to 10 teams and certain executives who make those deals.
What the hell is wrong with people defending big corporations who circle jerk each other and basically create a monopoly?
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That is objectively untrue, teams have different fanbases and not all teams are equally attractive to viewers.
I'm not defending franchising, I don't like franchsising. But it is the truth that G2 vs Vitality gets more viewers than Mouz-Outsiders, even if Mouz and Outsiders are better on any given day.
Majors show that every single time, they're the most competitive tournament, no franchising, no partner teams. And the big name orgs always lead in terms of viewership, no matter what stage. Navi - Furia in the quarter final got more viewers than the grand final for example
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it is conditioning that makes these have higher viewership, they are not as likely to have it if everyone was playing on the same playing field - teams like Astralis would not even qualify for anything in the past year, Vitality would not be seen much, G2 with aleksi would not be seen much....
Better teams would beat them.
Data you present is a flawed data because you don't count in the Major where all teams are on the same playing field - why does that matter so much? Well, because it's the only true competition, everything else is executives circle jerking each other off.
More money goes into those few orgs so orgs without contracts don't get any exposure, also, they do not get paid as much and they can't have assistant coach, analyst, mental coach and shit.
That brings them down, I said it when Hooxi joined G2 that I am hopeful because he achieved so much while being his own analyst.
Tier 3+ teams that have no contracts are not worse - they just don't have access to resources.
It's literal pay to win. And as soon as viewers realize that they are likely to leave.
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If you pay less then your players go to someone else that will pay the amount they're asking for, that's why orgs kept overpaying and even inflating salaries even further. Cuz money was pumped in by investors and that money had to be spent to stay on level with the rest.
This year we'll have a lot of orgs folding or scaling back because the investors have started realizing that it's not worth it so the money will dry up. And then we can hopefully have a reset and form a new sustainable scene
Fair enough.
half a year ago they wouldnt qualify for those events if it wasnt for franchising
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he only critizes it now because they are top 1
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He's been criticizing since before he joined G2
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proof
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youtube.com/watch?v=-Sm3TyJGkuk
Section Hooxi's bad point: Making the major is too easy
Where is your proof that Hooxi supported the franchising system before he got on G2?
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Majors dont have franchising system, he is talking about whole different thing, how quality of games is lower because there are 24 instead of 16 teams at the majors now (thats not even why its lower, its lower cuz of shitty players like him)
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yeah, he is arguing that something he directly benefitted from is bad
now show proof that he has changed his opinion after joining G2
It's an extremely valid point.
Just look at the partnered teams and notice the teams who pop up in both.
ESL partner teams:
Astralis – BIG – Complexity – ENCE – Evil Geniuses – FaZe – Fnatic – FURIA – G2 – Heroic – MOUZ – NAVI – NIP – Liquid – Vitality
BLAST partner teams:
Astralis – BIG – Complexity – Evil Geniuses – FaZe – G2 – Heroic – OG – NAVI – NIP – Liquid – Vitality
Astralis/BIG/coL/EG all partnered in both is beyond a joke.
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blud thinks col is above astralis
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I never realized col is a top 10 team, wtf
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They are not, just inflated rankings
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Yea I meant hltv top 10
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if Big used to be "the name' in CSGO so did EG.
they were at one point the best team in the world.
and no fall off is as bad as EG's, it doesnt matter if Astralis went from the greatest ever to tier 2, EG went from a tier 1 dark horse title contender to losing to tier 3 NA mixes and Team One
Valve makes $54 million each month from case openings. Shouldn't they do more for the entire ecosystem around professional CS:GO to be a lot more healthy and profitable, so they can continue to promote the game through this? Seems so strange, that Valve is so detached from everything except Majors.
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why should they tho...? they earn money from it and thats their main goal. its as simple as that
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but its not their fault or their problem is it? why should valve cut their earnings, hire people, invest their own money, time and effort to solve problems of other companies(in this case TOs and orgs)?
they are in the business to make profit and they earn a lot and they will be earning money in the future with or without cs anyway
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Because that's how they do part of that money? If s1mple use a new knife and kills someone, that knife increase a lot in demand, same with other skins.
If suddenly there's no pro circuit nobody will buy stickers for teams and players, even if some were great in the past because you search for get right, olof or anyone that's a legend and their stickers are lower priced than worst s1mple sticker.
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cs was almost never profitable and guess what? its still here...
again, its not their job to lead business of other companies. they are developers and their main job is to deliver product.
why should they risk their own money to solve for example orgs problems? is it valves fault that players have inflated salaries etc? no
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Cs is super profitable for valve, as developers of a competitive game, having a pro circuit is great on marketing levels, helps to engage new players, to keep people engaged in your brand even if they don't play, helps people who create content in social media... If you watch all the other competitive games with dead scene, their number of active players goes down pretty quick.
Even if they don't want to get involved directly as organizers of events, helping them to place the product creates a lot of synergies that end up in more players/money for volvo
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by not profitable i mean orgs. ofc its profitable for valve...
but still, why should valve care about profits of other companies in the industry? should they also care about profits of for example steelseries or intel bcs...you know...without sponsors, their money and products there wont be esport scene either? this is not valves responsibility.
btw read this:
dust2.us/news/34662/heroic-fail-to-raise..
and especially this part:
"Omaken Esports, which acquired Heroic in February 2021 also raised approximately NOK 150 Million ($14.0M USD) at the same time frame"
freaking 14m and they are broke in 2 years? and this is only heroic that we are talking about. we have no idea how other orgs(there were already rumours about faze and we had chance to see financial report of astralis) are doing.
i mean what the hell do you even want from valve here:D?
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"should they also care about profits of for example steelseries or intel bcs...you know...without sponsors, their money and products there wont be esport scene either? this is not valves responsibility."
Why do you think they'll udpate the game and it will be harder to play on potato pc? Because which interest is gonna have intel to sponsor a game that you need no cpu to play it?
Ofc there are many orgs using more money than they should, that has nothing to do with valve helping to promote more the game through the pro circuit and "helping" t2-3 to get more visibility and chances to upgrade to t1 orgs if they work hard
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i mean they can obviously...but imo they know their numbers very well.
they know how much money, time and effort would it take so thats why they most likely wont do anything about it...
and about those updates. its not bcs of those companies and their profit but more about overall progress and to catch new and younger players that care about graphic way more than older people(for example i prefer 1.6 and still play games like gothic from time to time :D)
Valid point, even tho they made a skin economy so there is alot of people who are not valve that care for skins and even if pro scene dies out as long there is people playing the csse opening would be a thing, much lower scale tho. But they should do more for the Pro scene
Valve makes indirect money from the esports scene. If they want to make more money they should somehow help the organisations. Im not expert on this particular field so idk how they should do it but they definetly should keep the esports scene alive and use money to do so if required.
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#37
and how do you want them to help orgs? just donate money to them? valve isnt charity
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Idk if my wording was bad or you cant understand what you read but let me try to rephrase it for you:
I think Valve should keep the esports scene alive, because they can make money from it. Donating money doesnt seem wise move. Its not charity to use money to cultivate the esports scene, its an investment which results as more money.
Like i said in previous comment, idk enough about the subject to know how to do it. I think valve should organize more open circuit events but i dont know enough about organising those events (i have never attended one) or how to make money from those to be sure if its the right course of action.
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again: valve is developer, not tournament organizer. its not their job to policy esport scene or take care of other companies and their profit in the industry.
they do majors as an exception+they made stickers which is already money boost(and big one).
its not their faul that orsg pay inflated salaries to players and on top of that they give them like 90% of prize money and stickers money even tho that those orgs arent profitable
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I never said its their job. In my opinion its just a smart business decision to keep the scene alive because they can make money out of it.
Valve also makes profits from the stickers, they didnt make them as a charity either.
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valve definitely know their numbers and how much money, time and effort would it take...
btw if 1 org can be broke from 14m dollars in 2 years then noone can save that
It's short-sighted of valve to think that cs will keep making this amount of money if esports dies
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csgo will eventually die like 1.6 did and there will be new game. also cs(especially pro scene) isnt their only source of income
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Esports will displace conventional sports in a few decades, it's short sighted to not get a big piece of that
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but valve will get a big piece of it and it wont be from csgo most likely anyway since it will be replaced by new game sooner or later right?
and again, they still generate big profit from csgo with almost no effort at all(outside of game development) so why would they waste their money and time to make profit for other companies? they have no reason for it...especially since there are orgs like heroic that can go from 14m dollars in fundings to 0 in 2 years. i mean why on earth can valve even change this? and it wouldnt not be profitable for them
CS needs franchises, that's what creates fanbases.
If they kept folding and reforming there wouldn't be followings for the teams which is what drives spectators and income.
For example, I like to watch Astralis, despite them being shit lately. The number of competitions they have not qualified for, they should have folded by now but then who would I watch?
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There are opportunities to qualify for those players.
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OK, from a business perspective.
If, next season, all the big names failed to qualify and 20 teams from russia/brazil nobody had heard of all qualify for it.
Would viewer numbers go up or down?
I would bet my house they would be down.
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I understand your opinion. But I don't care for profit of ESL or some other scumbags. I want to watch a tournament where play currently strong teams and not someone with a big bag of money who is there to multiply their profits. I want to see something like sports and not like wrestling. Now it's like a closed premium club of a bunch of people who make big money. It would be great if they failed to qualify, but they simply cannot. They have infinite amount of tries when other have almost zero. Look at EG )
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From a player's perspective, it's very restrictive to "make it pro" this is why they all have academy feeder teams now.
But I don't blame ESL for copying the NFL franchise type league where every team has a brand. They're trying to raise the viewer counts.
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Simply not true, franchises aren't things that "create fanbases", in 2013-2017 there was no franchises whatsoever and it didn't stop milions of people from following the pro scene and hitting new records of viewership. A good matchup like C9 vs NAVI or smth will always generate more views than EG vs CoL... even if some of the viewers who would've watched EG vs CoL won't watch C9 vs NAVI.
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Why would anybody care about the org rather than rosters/players? its all just branding and social media.
Only exceptions I would make are well run orgs like complexity with Jason Lake or ence/mouz which have always been pretty smart considering their size/resources.
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The same as any other sport.
Clubs like Leeds and Newcastle still going strong with a big fanbase, despite being rubbish sides.
It's a two-edged sword. The tier1 teams that get to just go in there without qualifiers have an easier time getting into the events. But as we saw in the Rio Major, a lot of these teams couldn't play at a good level against teams outside this tier1 big money circuit when push came to shove.
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not sure what you're trying to say, but I mean the tier1 teams could also benefit from being more exposed to the tier2 scene and beyond
The issue I have with franchising is that it kills national teams.
I mean look at how few we have now as franchise teams.
We have Astralis, Heroic, EG (kinda), Liquid (Kinda), BIG, Furia, and Navi (kinda)
These franchise teams are going to go international to compete, but it gets rid of the storylines of national teams
That's what people don't understand about tier 2-3 teams and how hard it's to get into better results, because is not just that they need to go through 25 games to get into major, is that sometimes they play three events on the same day just to get to next round of a qualifier that has only 2 spots available, yet people keep crying about fluke teams
Not just fair points, this is called BASED.
The whole system of partners teams is so shit. Because we should see some trash teams like EG playing in every event, but in a fair competetion they cant qualify even to the NA's rmr. Like, wtf, easiest region to do that and you still can not
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He led a team to major playoffs without star players
he's right
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