Thread has been deleted
Last comment
first rio, now this. 2 flukes in a row is not a fluke anymore, it's a consistent picture
tiers just don't exist anymore as we know them
cs:go teams are basically divided into 2 big tiers, esl/blast partners and poor orgs that have to grind low-chance quals
once non-partner teams get an opportunity to play a tournament with fair qualification system and a lot of spots, we see that that most of these "tier-1" teams are beatable
idk but maybe it means that cs:go scene has exhausted itself
Get rid of best of ones and give crowd in legends and challengers I wanna see what happens with tier 2 teams then. They have no fans. So the fans will be against them, and best of one fluke is over as well then
You don’t wanna do it? Well then we will have this terrible format with “upsets”
53 replies
22 replies
21 replies
So you're admitting your point wasn't very good?
7 replies
4 replies
That's what I did :)
3 replies
1 reply
What am I missing? Isn't his point that less experienced teams do worse with a crowd?
11 replies
You’re still talking about a format that has bo1 and then after them bo3. It must be bo3 all out, otherwise you can’t count these matches in. Otherwise of course, tier 1 teams don’t win always and some upsets are legit. G2 lost against themselves, they had dogshit mentality in the legends stage for example
The whole system sucks. Some get easy opponents some get hard ones.
10 replies
So-called tier1 teams lost in both bo1 and bo3 matches, if bo1 were the problem these teams would have won their bo3 matches but it didn't happen.
8 replies
yea, the biggest teams like navi faze g2 all sucked this major in bo1 and bo3. faze are making a comeback atleast tho
5 replies
4 replies
Double elimation is widely used in the most competitive formats. Formats using double elimination are used by most sports and esports period. I'm actually unsure of what epls current format is. They've been double elim before for sure. For many years. I think it got tricky once there was more teams involved. So I'm unsure of if they moved to bo1s currently. But I believe they did at one point. I don't count it as true double Elim unless the lives are bo3 dependent
3 replies
2 replies
I knew they changed formats so we didn't have the awful round Robin or whatever it was where each team faces eachother once. And then by the end teams would have reason to not care about losses because they already qualified/lost plus wouldn't even get higher positions in the tournament ladder. But I couldn't remember for sure if they went to bo3. Good on them
1 reply
Flair checks out, poor G2 fans.
Also new idea, don't lose to itb and apeks lol
those tier 2 teams were able to win both BO1s and BO3s equally, the gap between the top 5 teams and top 10+ is just not the same as before
1 reply
it isn't the same because the playstyle regressed due to navi and the online era, it's super individual, and the teams that play 5 official bo3s a week in their low tier online events are just more warmed up, they don't play with anti-stratting because there's too many games and not enough time, so they have super fledgling strats, which the top teams can't prepair for. It's basically a bunch of puggers that can look at what your tendancies are to be ready for it playing guys that play a couple officials a month
9 replies
7 replies
6 replies
5 replies
4 replies
2 replies
1 reply
Personally I agree, and I actually wish coverage of the RMRs was more widespread and accessible.
Correct this ezpop talkinf a lot of shit for past few days that i see. Everyone is equal not like so called tier1 teams in bo1 have to win 2 maps and tier 2 only 1 is fair and square same for every team u dont face teams u want in life it id how it is. When u watch basketball or football teams dont choose who they face. If they are toer 1 teams and better players they have advantave the anti strat thing is not fully exists its more of excuse cause u should adapt as top team and change gameplay on the moce as you play not have it same as usual. If you lose you was worse and opponent played better no excuses except to work harder. How is it someone elses fault m0nessy and niko got pressure get to them and they choked and lost themselves jks and hunter tried their best. The difference is itb and apeks and gl played good team games so far while g2 nothing spexial they relied on individual skill they think they unbeatable after winning kstowice lol but faze heroic vitality has as much individual skill but they also has better synergy and teamwork and adapts quickly..
+1
Do you think G2 has Ultras? LMAO
You are not Furia or Astralis
8 replies
You realize they play for our entertainment and earn money with it? Otherwise there’s no point to watching them play.
We can see with Korean or Chinese teams in League how interesting it is when everything is only down to gameplay, completely uninteresting bots, they play extremely good but have no personality. That’s kinda comparable to tier 2 teams in csgo. Or more like the extreme version of it. You want that?
7 replies
man, you just don't know anything about them, that's a thing. and you are pretty silly if you think that some guys are personally better only cuz you know them. I'll tell you something bad - almost nobody knows you. does it make your personality worse? idk, you are not even a human for me, just a bunch of letters.
6 replies
5 replies
"I have a hugely interesting personality and people would actually want to know me"
Now that's a cope if I ever saw one. You are arguing on HLTV about how your favorite logos are not in the bracket. That's not interesting, and if you argue about that - I don't want to meet you to discuss anything more meaningful.
2 replies
How about get rid of invites and have open qualifiers for every tournament. We'll see how partnered teams do then.
1 reply
+1 partnered teams are only better in front of a crowd bc they get invites to events with a crowd.
I think you are looking at this the wrong way. There are not 50.000 fans for all top orgs at any given location. You will have a home crowd cheering at their home team (Vitality in this case), but in many other matches you will have a huge crowd cheering for the underdogs.
1 reply
Yeah just make a tournament where the point is that everyone gets a chance and make the lower teams that performed well during qualification be booed on stage whanever they win a round. What kind of dumbass would ever think this is a good idea ? If T1 teams can't win a bo1 they are not good enough, a lack of preparation can kill teams. and it did, it has nothing to do with format, it's entirely on a team's shoulders to carry a win or a defeat. this kind of mentality is so weak and persistent amongst hltv users it disgusts me
2 replies
I think G2 is tier 2
the tiers are "partnered" and "not-partnered"
its financial tiers, and not tiers of good/bad
you can really see, how hard teams like Monte/Apeks/ITB/9ine grinded their asses off to be in paris, sadly some teams seem to have become lazy in the server or rely to heavily on having a big name.
12 replies
They travel more too. They have media days, content filers, sponsors obligations. Also, you play big events the whole year. The stress is not the same.
I like those new teams, but ppl tend to neglect the difference of pressure between the underdog who have nothing to lose and the other one who have to ..
10 replies
Funny to read... Some of these teams skipped event(s) to focus on Major.
9 replies
8 replies
G2, NaVi, FaZe all played like dogshit. FaZe is lucky to be there.
Heroic, Vitality, Liquid showed good performance.
7 replies
I think g2 was a bit too overconfident/arrogant before the major. I think they preps well, it is not because they were lazy, but they built a false sense of confidence. They peek mostly because of their individual forms. It was obvious, they were winning clutches after clutches. JKS had stats of a star player.
I also remember hooxi was "bitching" the other teams during the epl. "Why this player is doing that ?" It called nerves, our team show how this thing can happen.
Navi don't have a real igl and they believe too much about their system. Blad3 is way too involved in their real time action. The players lack initiative and don't have a plan B.
Faze look like a dead team.
5 replies
true, g2 only won because of 4 players playing at their top performance (not NiKo but he wasn't that bad). I knew this would happen as soon as they stopped winning miraculous 2v5's or 2v4's so i didn't really expect that much from them at this major.
1 reply
I agree with all except hks played like star player he is star player and he and hunter is best players in g2. Niko and m0nessy crumbles under pressure in late games on majors etc and jks was alwYs star player who always fragged. Hooxi is bot tho. Hooxi gets credit seems like for katowice when it was actual hks who helped rhe most to win and when jks was standin in faze and win katowice aswaell kinda solidified it not a coincidence. Also jks awareness is insane and he always calm under pressure and his mechanics are very good. On vertigo wnemy didnt even go B cause scared of him and he was fragging and anchoring alone with ez while m0nessy and biko got abused on a ranp vertigo and abused. Hooxi 3”15 frag a mao. Hunter and jks tried their best. But hunter and jks was ladt most time cause their team just died instead of plsying for map control and waiting for rotations. So many rimes jks aas last cause team died cause he was anchoring B
2 replies
I meant jks should not have great rating since he is playing a lot of anchor roles + passive lurking on t side. He is a great player, but his roles doesn't allow him to have "easy / trade" kills. An anchor with 1.20+ rating is not really something you can rely on. If jks is our first or second best player, something is not working. It is like when nitro is topfragging.
1 reply
No u dont understand its not about roles top players can adapt and play any roles for dxample magosk he can entry he can igl he can awp he can anchor he can lurk. If u top player and can play.1 role then u wont be tier -1 for long ther eis o ly 3 roles awp igl and riflers rest is based on player preferences and maps and strats if u play same roles same positions u just get find oit and u get rekt and punished. I need to be able to do different things. Jks was amd is star level player he fragged cause he is good not cause something was wrong all went wrong was that bigesu and biko and hooxi chocked and was bas nothing more
I wouldn't describe it as lucky to be at champions stage they came back against navi at a 6 round map point deficit to win out double overtime. They definitely should've won more handedly through out the stages but the fact they had the determination and grit to make it there from the LCQ says a lot more than luck
11 replies
Maybe "top" teams shouldn't lose to Monte/ITB? So they wouldn't play vs each other
10 replies
7 replies
Bro, people like you before the event talking about how good NaVi are ahahha
This is so funny to read comments like this after the games.
"They won vs inconsistent team, doesn't count".
Yeah, and who is consistent than? Heroic + Vitality? So Monte worse than just 2 teams in the world? Ahahhaha
3 replies
+1 people excuses are dumb af
Wtf dude they beat C9 ENCE 2-0 NaVi and had 14-10 vs FaZe
Who even is left?? They lost to vita and heroic but won like 12 13 rounds on avg against both so basically a round or two away from win
1 reply
Haha +1
lmao no
its just that tier1 is not that big
many "tier 1" teams are international and when individuals are lacking the team cannot make up for their mistakes
before, with regional teams it was not about the individuals but about the lack of errors due to similar playstyle between players/mindset
nowadays g2/faze/... are big because of individuals. When these do not feel comfortable, the team cannot make up for their mistakes and they lose
its that simple
3 replies
1 reply
Interesting take actually. If you look at the 2021 NaVi run as well, it was much more about cohesion, than it is now.
agree
Eg is esl partner team and still shit, 9z has to win entire reagion to qualify... unfair
5 replies
hltv.org/matches/2362263/00nation-vs-9z-..
9z got 16-0’d by coldzera on RMR QUALIFIER
1 reply
1 reply
no but they win iem rio qualy iem dalas qualy and esl katovice qualy
1 reply
They will be intense, I can't wait to see new strats
Your favorites missed out on the last major trophy?
Guess they didn't realize the importance of the LAST csgo major.
Look at Gambit Youngsters
nonamers sh1ro interz nafany
washed hobbit and Ax1Le who was avg 1.05 player when he 1st appeared
They grinded and became top1 in online era and later on even won Kato and other notable placings
Apeks beating NIP is not a fluke, match was always 50/50
Fnatic was like a meh fluke
4 replies
2 replies
1 reply
Huge respect for them doing such an insane comeback, but if you cannot stay composed and do not have the ability to close the map.it is u who is blamed for it, if there were no mistakes from nip's side they would already close map. maybe they even could take a match. if u watched match u see by yourself, NIP played good cs only in first halves in both map
Its quite obvious at this point that partner teams stifle progress of the competitive scene and all these non partnered teams are showing when they get a chance how much better they actually are. New talent is beating the old veterans even when facing a massive disadvantage in terms of experience. I just hope that in cs2 there would be less of these partnered leagues and shit teams would actually get relegated looking at you EG
3 replies
clown take, it's not as simple as that, when teams are all structured around having the biggest number of people pop off rather than minimizing mistakes and playing with more cohesion the people that play 5 official bo3s a week are more warmed up, I haven't seen a single game with one of these teams where they play any better strats or mistakes wise than top teams, they just hit their shots and win because they play so many officials. This is all thanks to the online era, navi finding an insane groove with guys that hit peak individual level, and then faze following suit
1 reply
your excuse : """TIER 3 TEAMS ARE WARMED UP""" LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
+1
3 replies
the thing is, top teams do the same shit, thanks to navi's online form, and faze countering it with more insane individual level, astralis started playing like trash, fnatic was falling off, navi had to change, and everyone started regressing to the pop off strat, where the team that hits their shots wins every time
+1 totally agree. I think they're hitting the skill cap of CS:GO, and it just comes down to who performs better on the day. Which actually makes the timing of CS2 fucking PERFECT
1 reply
not even close, teams, especially t1 teams are signing these t2 guys who are playing super well from practice and constant officials, the t2 guys start playing like shit because they aren't getting nearly as much practice, cohesion isn't as good because everyone is international, and half of every team is literally asleep. People are making way more mistakes than they did during the astralis era. The thing that would really save the pro circuit is another team like astralis min maxing their style and exploiting everyones mistakes
bo1 can be a fluke but you still need to win at least one bo3 to qualify
I'm not sure.
The issue I have is that I feel like these upset teams never actually go on to do anything afterwards.
None of these teams were particularly impressive before the major, and I don't expect most of them to do much after, even if they get invited/qualify to big tournaments for a while.
I don't like the partner system, as I think it really damages one of the benefits of the open circuit, but I don't really think that these teams are on the same level as faze/navi/vita/heroic/g2.
6 replies
it seems like a major exclusive performance. it has been happening for some time now, bne are a great example in the last majors
1 reply
The problem is that after major these tier2 teams have to play online games in tier2 events,or play online games for MONTHS then qualify for a ESL event.If a tier1 team has to play for months ONLINE for a spot I"m sure they wont make it either.And mostly teams that are invited are "tier1" asian or NA teams.
2 replies
I mean many of the previous upset teams have received opportunities (Spirit, CPHF, BNe) and none of them ended up doing very much outside of the majors.
Yes its true that its hard for good t2 teams to actually break into high level play, but there's also very few Major upset teams that actually proved to have longevity outside of their major run.
The last time that happened was like... 2019 ENCE? And even they had a bit of hype prior to the major.
1 reply
"Yes its true that its hard for good t2 teams to actually break into high level play, but there's also very few Major upset teams that actually proved to have longevity outside of their major run"-If they dont have opportunities they cant have upsets.I dont know what have you seen but bne and cphf didnt have chances.BNE and CPHF havent been in any of tier1 event (except major).
Csgo exhausted itself
Wait,,,, somethings happening.....
Du du dududududu
CSGO evolved into CS2
Would you like to name CS2?
>Yes
>No
copium. its a fluke
6 replies
the format doesn't make you lose matches
Especially during the time, I could understand how both Avangar and Renegades made it to playoffs, they had clear styles how they played that worked very well against specific opponents.
I really don't know what makes teams like GL, Apeks or ITB stand out from the other teams. Monte I kinda can see, but not really.
In bigger picture its problematic for the whole scene if tier1 teams in general are not better than tie2 teams. It means that the game is either too easy or based too much on luck. Or like some have said, tier1 teams play way too much against each other and can't perform against other teams.
2 replies
I think sports fans aren't the smartest bunch and have many illogical takes regarding these upsets. I think there are many reasons for those upsets. Definitely bo1s because they are so uncommon outside of majors that they can catch any team off guard (t1 or not). Also the overall level of competition has been low this year. Contrary to popular belief on this site the variance of athletic peformance over the course of 2-3 years cannot be simply explained by "since there are more good pros in 2023 we are seeing more upsets! And the skill gap in csgo is getting smaller and smaller!". Competition level doesn't scale so linearly so as to claim that every year teams are getting better (funny how we get similar hltv top 20 player rankings every year) Even physical sports with centuries of history doesn't work like that. In a competiton it usually takes at least 5 years for the skill level to rise on a large scale. And cs is only 10 years old. Variance of athletic performance over the course of 2-3 years can usually be summed up on account of circusmstantial factors such as player transfers, org stability, even war, etc. Teams are in a rebuilding phase. Many t1 teams have taken gambles and risks or plan on long term progress. I am pretty confident when all this stabilizes we will start to see less upsets in the coming year or two. And people would have forgotten all these upsets by then
1 reply
I don't disagree with anything you said. It is a problem if orgs think that in a half a year team can be good while in reality it will take 1-2 years with same core or even longer. That doesn't fully explain why tier2 teams with recent changes can win against tier1 teams with recent changes. Pressure can be one thing, but I don't really know. Maybe the bigger amount of matches lower tier teams play help them find the team balance quicker.
Huge take here
remove RMRs and have ranking invites based on the top 16 whatever ranking they decide
Make all matches bo3 and the major longer have qualifiers for the 8 slots left and use Iem Katowice rankings system combined with bulchoz.
Keep the challenger stage. So that the tier one teams have enough materials and demos to counter the unknown teams. They have the qualifiers and challenger stage
That is a huge fix compared to the shit we have now. Btw there has been a swiss bo3 before and most of the top teams made it through and the dogshit unknown teams didnt go through.
1 reply
The biggest problem with that is the partner teams we have. It is extremely hard to do a ranking which is not biased one way or another for the partner teams. Of course Valve can ignore Partner events completely, forcing tier1 teams to also play shit tournaments but how fair would that be either.
Tier 1 teams play in a vacuum. Now they are being exposed as they are forced to face lesser known, motivated teams. No fluke, just counter-strike
Are you forgetting some other tournaments in between? KEKW
Bo1 is a change of format. All matches all year are best of 3. It's straight up like like taking the nba and making the games decided in 1 quarter (look at each map as a 3rd for cs)
Top nba teams adjust, change strategy and adapt. Top cs go teams do the same.
Here you go play against someone you never play against and never study. But they have been studying you. Also you get 1/3 of a game.
Edit: bo1s are also shit to watch
4 replies
I heavily disagree about bo1 being shit to watch. I think some of the problem is that bo1 is never the elimination game so it never feels THAT important of a game. But I really like that it doesn't take whole day to watch one game.
About other things, you may very well be correct.
1 reply
1 reply
When you combine it with bucholz system and having no idea who your round 2 opponent could be its alot. Then also add only 4 hours till match 2.
Starcraft used to have this issue, you had gsl champions and then you had "weekenders" the gsl format was much more respected and the gsl champs didn't win many weekend tournaments
Mostly agreed but I still think that there’s some separation at the very top, but below the top couple teams is just a giant mix. Like heroic and vitality, especially heroic, have been consistently been beating most teams. Heroics obviously failed at the last step a lot but they very rarely go out early.
fluke mayor rigged for vitality
+1 obvious truth
3 replies
How do tier 2 teams get lucky with BO1s? As far as I am concerned, all of them won a BO3 to qualify, and the big teams that should have been in the playoffs lost those BO3s. Should the incapability of T1 teams to show that they are worthy to be there by winning the BO3 be dismissed just because Tier2 is Tier2?
2 replies
The issue is the B01s + the buckholz seeding being both used together, which allow for some teams to have comparatively easy roads because B01s produce a few random / unlikely results, which in turn messes up the already bad seeding because Buckholz is not compatible with B01 randomness.
For example, Gamer Legion lost to NaVi, then beat N9ne and Fnatic in their legends B01s, before beating Apeks in their B03. So to your point, they didn't really beat a Tier 1 team in a B03.
1 reply
I think your point is valid, buckholz and BO1 can, and in fact, did result in unexpected results. Then again... A few big names were not even in the major: VP, BIG, C9, Astralis were all eliminated in the qualifiers, and to some extent, you could say that if the matches were BO3, the more experienced teams might have capitalized on the chance (although it is worth noting that all of the teams listed lost their elimination BO3 2-0). If we are talking about the roads that lead up to the playoffs, I do believe that Buckholz is a fair system. I don't think the system produced any upsets in the challengers stage - it was rather punishing the teams that were slower to start, or did not hit the mark entirely. To me it rather begs the question if the meta should be read differently, were the eliminated teams prepared, and if the system simply showed that certain teams need more time/do not function and require changes. And lastly, if we were to place a bigger importance on the challenger/legend matches and make them BO3, should we make playoff matches BO5? Strictly from the importance and longevity point, to show that you are a better team in the distance, I do believe it would make sense, of course, the play time would be nonsense
This is Liquids major. Easy side of bracket. If they choke, - eLige and build around yeki more
How I'm sick of 17 iq shrimps who blame the format you absolute imbeciles, if you're so hurt over your favourite names and logos not making it further you've only got them to blame and NOBODY & NOTHING else in this entire universe. And until your hardly capable minds are able to grasp on this pretty simple concept, I see no point for you to even care about it, further discussions about it will only make matters worse for you and you might reach a point of no return when your disabled thinking will be broken beyond repair. To miss out on such a simple thing is just beyond, how do you live without randomly dying over an orange peel, hell
You know why the partnered teams exist though right? Its the same reason why franchising is loved by the orgs and players, it is sustainability and economy. (although franchising is too extreme imo).
Tournament prize pools are not enough for the players and the orgs who give consistent salaries, despite tournament placings. They need the constant sponsorship and viewership money to continue. Hence they are gonna pick the teams that are going to consistently place in tournaments and not teams who are one off winners, aka t1 teams.
Can t2 teams beat t1 teams. Ofcourse. No doubt, many times even. But can they consistently place high in tournaments and stave off fights from "lower" ranked teams? Orgs have bet on players and teams they think will stay in place for longer.
Thats why majors are the most competitive tournaments. Theres no risk for the teams playing, no cushion for the partnered teams to fall back on. Its the ultimate cage fight.
thats why in tournaments that half of the teams are not partnered teams they almost never make playoffs or deep runs, epl katowice blast showdown cologne etc etc
only gap is t2 teams are not getting free invites and those who qualif are just snack for t1. If somebody would like qualifiers to all of teams, we wouldnt see same teams every tournament
exactly
Now playing
ESL TV
12091 viewers
Top streams
All(57)
Casters(38)
Streamers(8)
Organizers(11)
ESL TV
(12091)
ESL TV (YouTube)
(7856)
gaules
(4332)
olofmeister
(3693)
Paragon
(2308)
Stewie2k
(2057)
sL4M
(1535)
CCT
(1161)
ESL TV
(951)
Maincast
(889)
CCT 2
(869)
KRL
(859)
FlipiN
(835)
RTP Arena
(822)
shox
(716)
ESL TV
(676)
watchfulTV
(675)
leniniw
(485)
Jogando Junto
(361)
ESL TV
(350)
watchfulTV C
(332)
1pv
(311)
Hyper
(299)
Maincast (YouTube)
(289)
watchfulTV B
(270)
forg1
(253)
99Damage
(226)
wonderbai
(221)
Winline
(203)
bt0
(192)
Segalson
(149)
Esport1 TV
(146)
SGL
(130)
mch
(126)
PLAYzoneTV
(123)
kRYSTAL
(120)
fines
(116)
Angelka
(99)
kartash0v
(96)
Vikingz_Odin
(95)
Winline 3
(79)
Astralis
(72)
gaules TV
(67)
Focus Fire
(62)
BTSBrasilMobile
(56)
BTSBrasilFPS
(49)
AVEZ
(24)
VelhoZennoN
(22)
ESL TV (YouTube)
(22)
gaules TV 6
(18)
Conkyyy
(17)
Josh
(10)
BTSBrasilCSGO
(9)
CCT 3
(7)
Mac
(5)
CCT 2 (YouTube)
(2)
SZPERO
(0)
