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How long before Zywoo overtakes S1mple?
When Zywoo inevitably gets HLTV #1 this year, he will have just has many as S1mple, he has a major and major mvp.
Only arugment left for S1mple is that he has done it for a longer time.
But Zywoo has been pro for 5 years now, and never placed below number 2 on hltv rankings, being the first to place #1 in his first year.
S1mple is the GOAT for now, but when does that change?
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No doubt
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Nowhere does HLTV claims to be the official Website for CSGO.
If you want a 3rd party base Website to give no.1 placement I can start one and give Dev1ce one for 2019 for 2 Majors and Grandslam While being Major MVP in 1 one of them, a feat not achieved since 2019.
Popular 3rd party Website doesn't makes things 'OFFICIAL'
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In general debate of any sport comes down to 3 primary categories.
No. of Ring & No. of MVPs > Individual stats.
Football is a bit tricky but general consensus is
World Cup/Champions league > Ballon'Dor > Goals and assists all time.
NBA has
RIngs & FInals MVP > MVP > Scoring, Assist, Steal, Block Titles.
For CSGO
Majors & Major MVP > MVPs > Other stats
To enter GOAT conversation You need to have the highest order of championship available in the game. Dupreeh has 5 Majors ... That qualifies him for conversation. but next 3 points are stacked against him no. of Major MVPs - 0, No of MVPs - 2 which is where Dupreeh's argument for GOAT fails. But does that makes Dupreeh any less great. Heck no, The fact that he has 5 major and was part of greatest dynasty ever. He deserves the moniker of Greatest but not for all time. Instead he deserves a Moniker that honors his skill and contribution, He absolutely deserves the title of Greatest Entry Fragger of All time. For the consistent 58% success rate ( Somebody on Time Travel lan quoted this figure).
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You are making a good arguement but there are a couple of problems.
First off, who made these rules?
Secondly, this does not adress my main arguement, that Device can not be the greatest of all time because he was never the greatest at any period, i would argue that, that is a heavy critea for entering the GOAT debate.
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By the same logic of who decides the criteria
If you take HLTV's flawed Rating system (its not me who saying this, Its HLTV themselves claiming in HLTV confirmed) It has bias towards more 0 & 1 but CSGO is not just 0 & 1 (Deaths and Kills), There are many factors that should play into a rating, so we will never know the true ratings of any player till they dont introduce rating 3.0 which fixes this issue.
If we take NBA or FIFA's Methodology to determined the greatest/ Bestest footballer of the year then they put heavy emphasis on Winning the Tournament and the storyline behind you winning that tournament to determine the Greatest/Player of that season. 2019 or 2018 was Dev1ce's MVP season.
As for who made these rules, I think Analyst from days of old made it. Says when there was Pele... He was the only Greatest of All time, Then came Maradona. that's where the comparison started and General consensus was that to be greatest of all time you have to win the biggest/most important trophy of the game multiple times.
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He still has less number of Majors and Major MVP.
and I say Its impossible to win 3 more majors. So if S1mple get one more Major MVP. I would say just give him the undisputed GOAT trophy send him home. Until then official major tournament's No. of Majors and no. Major MVP over 3rd Party rating system
For me Dev1ce and S1mple are 2 GOATs.
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nope , you're just selecting things to fit your narrative . By your logic , up until Stockholm 2021 , players like Happy, Pronax or Devilwalk should have been considered better players than s1mple because they've won majors and s1mple didnt which is just stupid . HLTV rating is an excellent way to measure a certain players performance over a whole year , major can be won by fluke , by peaking at a singular moment in your career , or like in dev1ce's case , by being part of a very successful system . Can dev1ce carry's this current Astralis lineup to a major playoff and further ? I highly doubt it , they didnt even qualify . By comparison s1mple carried the shit out of every liquid/navi lineup he has taken part off even if some of those lineups were flawed and lacked quality starting 2016 to 2021 .
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Not necessarily better players but apple of apples more accomplished and Its not an unusual argument to have in sport where players like Chris Paul and Steve Nash were arguably better point gaurds then Chaunsey Billup. But Billup went down in history for taking a No-super star team to finals and won it all against the GREAT LAKERS.
Best Players doesn't always become great players. Great players have all the accomplishments that any organized sports have. Ok just for your comparison... Chris Paul was an McDonald's All American, its a pretigious 3rd party award for Basketball players. Steph Curry wasn't McDonald's All American. Does that means Steph Curry cannot be the greatest player/Point guard to every touch the game because some 3rd Party didn't see him as an All star ?
just in case you don't NBA couple of references.
Piston vs Lakers was Basically 5 somebody vs Goliath of the game Kobe and Shaq. Nobody thought piston could take it but they did it.
Chris Paul is all time great point guard with 0 MVPs, 0 Championship, 0 finals MVP. But just like you mention about s1mple, He has taken shit teams to having best record of the season for that individual team and he did that 4 of 4 teams he has played for.
Steph Curry is one the greatest Point guard ever to play the game. He has 2 MVPs, 4 Championship and 1 Final's MVP (deserved more but just his bad luck). Changed the game forever by starting a 3 point revolution.
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I;m not into basketball that much but I have seen you use the " Ballon d'Or" as a very strong argument for deciding the GOAT in football . Now my question is why does " Ballon d'Or " , a third party trophy awarded by a french news magazine based on subjective votes , has more weight than HLTV rating which is based on actual stats ?
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I guess Ballon D'or is an outlier cause they had a partnership with Fifa. So there was a point in awards history. It was officially award for best player of the game.
To be honest I didn't know about the partnership ending and I am sure most of the casuals would also think its an official award.
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He still Cup of Championship.
Football is such outlier for me. I guess I should either stop quoting it or dive deep into the history.
On other hand... that man shouldn't be considered GOAT after it came to know he cheated to score the goal. It's like calling Hunden GOAT coach. If he wins like a majors or two. But still a good point. I ask you one. You gave me one example. Though it's easy to consider as a wild exception. But a win is win, it was my fault for low balling it. So you win this one.
Ggwp
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I didnt win anything mate , your point was wrong from the start . you are trying to motivate your GOAT choice through achievements based primarily on team performances and it doesnt work like that . Astralis had something very special , a synergy that lasted for years and developed into an era . thats something very hard to achieve . Astralis winning those majors were not a result of
certain individuasl carrying others . you remove one or 2 pieces of the puzzle , it all falls apart . Niko for example couldnt achieve that throughout all CSGO even though he is an amazing player , Zywoo barely did it in the last CSGO major and it needed all stars to allign in this freak of a Paris major . When s1mple and NAVI finally found this perfect balance starting KATO 2020 they got hit by Covid and online era and then even worse by the war, which made them lose Boombl4 and with him gone , players relocating and all type of politics destroyed a lineup which could have easily won 1 or 2 more majors .It was just bad luck in s1mple's case . When you start these types of comparisons you need to take all factors into account .
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But all GOAT conversations happen on basis of team achievement (Except Maradona and individual sports). It literally starts withs how many championships your team has won and then tickle downs to MVPs and Individual Stats. That is why Sunil Chettri not GOAT conversations cause Individually he at one point (2021) had scored more international goals than Lionel Messi. Because his team's achievements were shit.
Csgo and above and only s1mple and zywoo stans in all sport open up with their argument individual accolades. You go to football... the opening argument for messi vs Ronaldo is how many champions league/world cup have you one ? Or the league titles ? For NBA opening argument is ...how many rings have you won ? For American football it's how many superbowl have you won ?
You trying to carry a shitty a team is on you. Players move to team they think can win often. I respect twistzz for that. He wanted to win major. He found a team. Did whatever he can and won a major. Nobody stopped s1mple from having his own super team. And yes... I know and understand there is a streak of bad luck man has had. Which is why i am not even asking him to be major winner. Just a major mvp ( one more than he already has)... even if it's a losing major mvp.
Anyways... both of us have opinions on how a GOAT should be decided and neither of us are able to convince the other about it. It's call agree to disagree. And call it a quits. Cause we will just go in circles.
I respect s1mple as one of the 2 GOATs of Csgo. But Dev1ce will be my no.1 until s1mple wins one more major and major mvp.
I understand,
Since lot of people get there CSGO information from HLTV. They tend to rate HLTV no.1 a lot higher. As a very Defining factor a person's greatest but it shouldn't be. its a 3rd party website at the end of the day. Whenever grading a player it should always be official tournament and MVPs. They should come 1st and then 3rd party accolades and individual stats when comparison is too close.
At least that is my opinion. I think because of HLTV lot of people disrespect dev1ce's argument for GOAT. Where as I can make an argument, Dev1ce is technically Majors MVP for all majors of Astralis - 1.29 eleague Highest for Astralis, 1.26 FaceIT London (Won), 1.32 Katowice 2019, 1.26 Starladder Berlin (won).
Even if assume Just Final matches Performance only and only then Dev1ce has 2 MVP. London and Berlin, But damn Xyp9x should have won that MVP in Kato. No Idea how Magisk got it. regardless, Dev1ce was the 2nd best player behind Xyp in Kato. So ya... I don't know would you define greatestness if you ignore this man's performance in the official highest rated tournament.
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well then you have to take someone like neo or forest as well
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s1mple have 3 Cologne MVPs all on LAN
zywh0 6 MVPs are from online era
s1mple won the major by beating all the best teams
zywh0 never ever even defeated a top 15 team in major playoffs LMAO
How dare you compare this bot to GOAT s1mple
Yeah dev0ce is 'GOAT' without even being the best for a single year
NA Logic
s1mple clears him
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You say "delusional Zywoo fanboy", but I'm pretty sure most Zywoo fans would gladly accept dev1ce as GOAT; and that's because of all his majors and achievements that Zywoo does not have.
However, we just would never accept s1mple as GOAT, because he spent twice as long, and still has the same amount of achievements. With that being the facts, how can you call him the GOAT.
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then dupreeh > dev0rce with your logic,
You just can't be the goat if you could not manage to win at least one top1 in 10 years of playing csgo.
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Poor fallacy logic. Overall achievements > individual achievements and by far and away
Go do the maths, dupreeh is nowhere near device, that one major title doesn’t clear 19 mvps.
End of discussion :) not repeating myself for different people endlessly
Don’t care about your acceptance either, logic is logic
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OnlineSlam, and s1mple playing for much longer than Zywoo, Zywoo never out of top2 players
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ZywOo half of his career online and his major MVP versus weak field, never played against true great teams like Astralis/SK/fnatic and when did play them 2019 Liquid/Faze 2022/ NAVI 2021, he shit the bed but on the other hand, s1mple has beaten and destroyed them all (except NAVI ofc)
currently his “prime” is playing against one of the weakest cs competitive eras, meanwhile s1mple 2018 arguably played in the hardest cs era
has always played on one team, in his comfort zone, always had legendary players by his side with tons of experience while s1mple literally went to t3 Liquid in 2016 lmao
Got to play his best role from the start whilst s1mple had to wait until 2018 to become the main awper
Major playoffs, almost every time plays poorly and underperforms and in other big events that also happens
s1mple also has more tournaments, more MVP’s, better eye-test, overcame hate and still faces it, while zywoo gets a free pass because he smiles and doesn’t talk shit to bad players
s1mple also has an intel-grandslam, a katowice and a cologne, something ZywOo doesnt have
s1mple with 1.21 rating is being called “washed” but when ZywOo had below 1.15 or lower, no one said a word but then all the zywoo stans came out of their caves in the latter part of the years just to talk trash
You can only make the case for ZywOo being the best individual player but no need to lower requirements for someone to be considered in the GOAT debate
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i agree that s1mple is goat (for now) however please show me when zywoo had 1.15 rating or underperforms vs good opponents? i checked the stats and i can find nothing to back this up
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check the rating bar of his every year, has had multiple times where he performed below his average
There is no debate.
The GOAT of Counter-Strike is s1mple
Anybody who says otherwise is delusional hater or low tier baiter.
He will not overtake him as the official goat of csgo, its undeniable.
But for CS2, ZywOo will be in a similar position to s1mple today, and m0nesy will be in a similar position to ZywOo today.
Honestly, despite the fact that i dont like device that much, i have to admit...what he's doing at age 27 after being publicly humilliated, facing multiple health issues, going through multiple surgeries and starting from 0 again with Astralis....is straight up heroic, he's different, device in csgo reminds me a lot of Modric in football, a total "crack" like we say in the spanish-speaking world.
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