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Honestly the biggest bullshit statement I ever heard. You keep hearing about the shortage of qualified people especially in the IT-sector.
I have recently finished my bachelors degree with 1.7 and I have a little bit of work experience. I should be in high demand, yet out of the 15 applications I have sent so far, I have gotten 5 rejections and 10 haven't answered yet. And each day I get recruitment offers on LinkedIn for being tech support, it's fucking infuriating.
How is your experience with the job market right now?
im schoolboy
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Q?
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It's the same thing with the older generation complaining about people being on there phone. Back in ancient greece people were complaining that the young generation reads to much and does not partake in life anymore, lol.
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+1
You also might know this Sokrates statement:
The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.
At least I dont want to become a boring old man who is just complaining xd
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Mark my words, you will become one.
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I am 23 now, tell me how many years I have left?
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It's hard to give an exact prediction but it mostly depends on how much will those future overton windows differ from the current one's. Being unable to work with new tech features (like online banking and other stuff) is also a good marker. Basically those two (among others) are good signs of the lack of neuroplasticity, so instead of admitting that we can't chase the ever changing world our mind tells us it's the world which is wrong not us lol
3
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This applies to the US only. In Germany studies claim that 34.000 qualified it people are missing.
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tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/it-berufe-fachk..
It is german and apparently the figure is twice as high than I claimed. Lol
Nvm, the 34000 was accurate as it is limited to people with at least a bachelors degree
weird in my country people get laid off, companies have it pretty rough rn in this sector
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What are you doing for your company, if I may ask :-)
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ah, you're that type ;-)
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That's classified information, you're leaking! 🤯
(Pretty cool though)
Well, there to go. You're not just a programmer straight out of College.
But the reality is that many people get their degree and can't get a job, because companies want experienced workers.
But people can't get experience if they're not hired. So they end up unemployed for a while, until they find something, usually in a different field.
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+1 skill issue. that's because people expect to learn programming in Uni/College. those things don't teach u how to be a good programmer, they give u basic info and directions.
i was working as an intern/very low salary for a private project with other good programmers to get real working experience and that was 3 years before i went to University. people expect to go to University with 0 programming knowledge, only rely on whatever the fk they teach you, come out and instantly get a high paying jobs.
unfortunately programming isn't as easy as it seems because there's a lot of directions and to be a well rounded programmer you need to know a lot of things, all the way from backend to frontend. and you should put some time and effort learning by yourself online and making huge projects to improve your skills, whether you're software dev, web dev or both.
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+1
+1 and nobody wants to teach. If you're straight out of school you either know someone that will give you experience or you're fucked
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that is pretty accurate, I've seen junior applications demand you have experience in tools that would be hardly accessible by a random person, recruiters in IT are such a joke
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bro thats a lie. Of course even if you do love your job. There are times that people just think like "I rather be home that doing this now". Every job have the its downside where you still have to do it. Even like footballers, have sometimes to work on sun 40ºC, dry pitch and its a more physical training. Even me as a web developer sometimes finds a bug that take me time to find it and whats is causing it. Most of the time your dream job will not feel like work, but there will be days that you really feel you are "working"
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+1 weather and stuff doesn't even affect it that much. There are just some days were you don't want to, have no motivation, feel a little nauseous, are tired. But you still put in the hours and your best effort, because that's literally your job
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Don’t know for germany but in France everybody got told to be engineer thinking that is the absolute golden path.
Now there is too much of them and they struggle to find job that isnt pizza delivery.
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On va dire qu'il y a Ingénieur et Ingénieur quoi ;)
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Et en plus, si tu as le diplôme qui va bien, tu va vivre le frontalix dream à Genève.
Effectivement y’a polytechnique et polytech Nice :D
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mdrr
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Because Iceland too strong
here's a fun thread on the topic twitter.com/paulisci/status/168179040561..
Well i guess "noone wants to work anymore" is more a thing in lower jobs.
In germany for example a quarter of working people is bareley earning more than minimum wage.
After taxes , scoial security contribution and rent most of the people have slightly more or the same as someone living from unemployment benefit. I guess it is hard to find motivation to get up every morning just to have a few € more than someone who does not have to do anything.
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yeah its like the normal german employer
-treats employees like crap for years
-pays minimum wage
-fires colleague who wants to establish works council
consequence: nobody applies for a job at that employer anymore
suprised pikachu face
"must be the lazy youth and the shortage of skilled workers"
I used to work minimum wage when I was like 17, now I currently am jobing for 13 euros, which is slightly above minimum wage. Tell me why the 13 euros nowadays seem to have less purchasing power than 9 euros 5 years ago. Its fucking ridiculous, you cant live off that.
I got a pay rise of roughly 30% after the lockdown due to the demand for security work going through the fucking roof as to be in a high level of security you basically have to pay about £2,000 for all the correct licenses and for the most part these only need to be renewed every couple of years with courses etc but it's effective at keeping out the riff raff and the company I work for pays for all my licenses, training, etc.
Going into IT is a terrible idea because there are already like 50 million Indians willing to do your job for like literally a tenth of the price you would cost.
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That just shows that your company is run well. Most companies in that position refuse to raise salaries and then wonder why people are leaving.
I don't think people mean tech support when they say IT.
Surprised Media lies about it to lower the salary. Because then many try to get this job and rejections lower the salary.
Best is to work for institutions or gov companies.
Totally the opposite, I'm lucky that my bachelor degree was into an apprentiship, that level up by a mile my CV and got a lot of offers to be project manager engineer, first with a salary in adequation with my degree, then I left the company to get a higher salary and now 3-4 years after my first job after my degree, I have an engineer salary
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Well, I want to get a masters, but first I need a bit of cash cause I do not want to rely on my parents support, nor do i want to work two jobs while studying to pay for rent and living expenses.
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Not sure what EU country you are from, but I would like to do my masters outside of Germany and depending on the country, tuition and housing costs vary a lot.
Sweden for example has zero tuition costs, but housing in Stockholm or Göteborg is priced even more unreasonable than where I am from.
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I studied my full masters in Sweden, Lund. Housing as cheap as ~400€ per months, summers free of charge for housing. Swedish citizenship.
Stockholm is a terrible, terrible city in my humble opinion. Housing is unreasonable expensive, the people are pretentious and opportunities (for IT) is worse than opportunities in surrounding areas.
Øresund area (CPH, Helsingør, Malmö, Lund, Helsingborg), Oslo, UK or North West Europe are areas where I would try to study at if I where to do my masters again. Then chase thesis opportunities at any of the companies in these regions.
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Well in the UK you barely have any advantages as a EU citizen anymore and life there seems miserable. The unis are probably the best in Europe, but I actually do not want to go there.
How is it in Oslo for example? Do you pay full tuition and if yes, how much is that?
Jag har redan börjat att lära mig svenska, däreför skulle jag föredrar att studera i Sverige, men jag är också okej med Nederländerna eller kanske Italien.
Thanks for your input (also most people say Malmö is a shit hole, I'm surprised you recommend it).
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Malmö has many good corporations, but very bad unis. So with a master's in your hand, Malmö is great. It's very culturally diverse, so any xenophobic online troll will tell you it's a shit hole. Personally the more languages and cultures I have around me the more I thrive.
Disclaimer: I'm NOT in Malmö right now, but their online troll-reputation is not justified in real life. Worked there around 2013-2016.
Oslo has well paying jobs, agian, good once you have a master's in your hand. Never payed a tuition in my life, never worried about paying a tuition. So I can't tell you about tuitions. I imagine it's like any other EU member, but no guarantee since they aren't a formal member.
I looked for jobs in Italy but they pay very poorly, unis should be OK tho. So if you are ready to move after education, sure! But the key to your original problem (not finding job fast) is to study where you want to work. The transition from uni to a job will be smoother that way.
Netherlands would be a very good option imo. Denmark very well paying (extra well paying if you do daily 1 hour commute from Swedish border). Switzerland top tier as well. Germany is generally really good (not abroad for you tho) and I have uni friends who really liked Thier master's to job transition while in France.
Looking for job as a python dev now myself, I have similar experiences. I guess I have to aim low in terms of salary and prioritize improving my skills to get to higher-paid jobs.
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The thing is I have friends who are in it roles and earn 65k with one year of experience and whenever he needs to do any real IT work he contacts me and I do it for him.
I am not gonna work for 30% less salary than my friend who is literally not qualified for his job. Not happening, sorry.
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how about selbstständigkeit?
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I'm a 22 machine learning engineer / data scientist. I have no funds or anything, I dont think this possibility is realistic, especially cause I just want to work for 1-2 years and then do my masters.
Maybe it's about soft skills and presenting yourself in a proper manner. Getting jobs is a skill too
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I am well aware, but I do not even get interviews right now. And all the jobs that companies write out ask for 3-5 years of work experience. Where am I supposed to get that if you mfers dont hire.
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Machine learning/data science jobs are not as in demand as regular developer jobs. That might be part of it.
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Is that actually the case? What do you base that on, because with the entire AI machine learning chat gpt craze I would expect the exact opposite.
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On the other hand, I have been seeing more job postings (in America) that require the candidate to have experience in ML in order to be qualified for the role. These listings are usually posted by startups and it all seems to be related to the GPT hype.
I'm basing it in my own search for a job (I already have one, I'm just looking into better conditions (read conditions as money lol)
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What experience did you have, what degree and how long did it take you?
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I have a degree in software engineering (just bachelor). I got an internship around 2/3 months after finishing college and started applying, and after 9 months (duration of internship, but after 2/3 months of training I was already working on the real projects) i got hired and been working there for 2 years, with yearly salary review. It's not the best, but it isnt all bad either.
I agree, soft skills are extremely important especially in a technical field like IT. As long as you have decent technical skills and good soft skills, you can make it far in this field.
but look, take a less paying job because it's always easier to find a new, better paying job while you have one already. it's better for you also not to waste time, i know it because i've been there, and as soon as i started working at a better company, a month has not passed where someone didn't offer a job. sometimes you get 3-4 offers in a week or in a day, but you have to start.
i would say, the only things to be picky about are the technologies on which you want to work, don't work with stuff you don't like.
EDIT: i was living for a while in Vienna, have sent at least 50-60 apps, got rejected or didn't get a response from at least 40 of those, but as soon as i started working on one, they started sending offers
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well, I guess you are raising some few good points. maybe i will enter lower numbers into the desired salary field.
why would anyone want to work xd
We had this problem last summer when we just couldn't find qualified people, which means engineers but then it suddenly changed and we employed 6-7 in space of 6 months.
But it is absolutely true for lower paid / manual labour jobs where I would say at least more than 50% are imported people from Bosnia/Serbia/Albania and I think this is true for a lot of EU countries.
15 applications with no work experience.. yeah buddy that ain't how that works
when I was still studying and sending applications in IT it was in hundreds, eventually got a summer job at a good company, then with that experience a permanent junior position, then going from there and now its easy to get a job. Just get something you start out with, doesn't have to be too long, 1 year at most if you're not getting promoted or better salary
Obv my work experience limited to Finland but I feel like this applies in most places
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I am a machine learning engineer / data scientist. Smaller companies have no use for me,
so I only apply to larger companies in my area. Yes, I could send out a 100 applications or something, but German companies still expect you to write a letter about yourself, why you like the company and are a good fit for the position and I cant do that times x100
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If you're unemployed your work is applying for work, 8 hours a day and that is not too much work. Make a template for those letters and modify as needed based on company and the position you apply for. Yes it sucks but once you have some actual work experience you are much more likely to get recruited
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I hate nothing more than applying for jobs, it is honestly so infuriating.
Each company has their own stupid career portal, some of which are so fucking buggy, especially the one of Mercedes (who btw have a separate career portal for all their subdivisions).
And then they require you to re-enter your entire CV into their form, despite you having already uploaded your CV and also please include a "Motivationsschreiben" where you suck up to us for one DIN A4 page.
Oh and btw the people who assess your application actually have no idea about your field of work and often times they dont even bother responding, good luck & have fun!
But yes, you are correct I guess, but besides that I am currently still working in a low wage job and getting some additional qualifications for my masters, so I cant do applications all day.
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it is, lol HR people are the ones who decide whether your application makes it through to the person in charge and they sure as hell do not know jack about IT
"nobody wants to work anymore"
Translates to no one wants to work for 5 dollars an hour anymore so we cant hire anyone
Does your qualifications match the job requirements? Machine learning / data scientist is so fluffy, how do you translate that fine title into value for a company?
Most university degrees has a total lack of real world experience as the degree is entirely focused on academia. Can you show anything you have accomplished, any project that you have worked? Are you realistic with your experience and align your job hunt accordingly?
I started my career 12 years ago with a boring non-interesting job that did not pay well. Landed a dream job about a year later, though pay was bad.
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My thesis is very practical and applicable and I have had an internship and a cooperation with a very established company in the region.
>> Machine learning / data scientist is so fluffy, how do you translate that fine title into value for a company?
I'm not exactly sure what you are asking about here.
And my university degree is very application focused, I do not come from a university, but a university of applied sciences, which I regret a bit cause they are not as prestigous, but applicability is definitely not my week spot.
Of course I could apply for some java backend position, but that simply is not my area of expertise nor what I want to do, so yeah I need to get into a data oriented position.
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haha yea classic, you need experience but you cant get that when nobody hires you in the first place
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Im satisfied with my actual full-time work place because I was lucky but my girlfriend works part time job while studying in 100 000 population city, her wage is only 5 USD/hour. Its such bullshit, she has to drive there for half a hour every day, every fucking degenerate employee got a deal with other employees to not pay more than this 5 USD/hour. Its such a joke when rent alone for a small flat in there is about 460 USD/month, without energies, you cant buy shit, you cant have shit despite working 60 hours a week. And you hear boomers saying that youth dont want to work anymore, is lazy because of phones, internet and shit, everybody wants to be influencer, youtuber, pro gamer. I would also want to be a influencer because actual job market is hell worldwide, employees and land lords are making of people. People are total scums after 2020, like war in Europe is not enough :)
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i hate berlin. no ty.
After graduation I spent 10 months doing fuckall and surprise I didn't get any work, not even interviews. Then I decided to actually do something instead of sitting around, spent some time to write each application and got two interviews which second landed within half a month.
The market is crazy. Everywhere there is job openings and if I wanted to switch jobs it would be so easy. But getting started working is always harder.
Sending 15 applications is nothing, widen your search or take what is offered on LinkedIn. You need to stop being so picky and get working, much easier to then move to a different job and you'll make money rather than sitting on your ass. Also sitting on your ass, when the job market is like it is make you look lazy.
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This. Your first job doesn't matter as much in IT. Get whatever you can get, and then companies will look at you differently even with just 1 year experience. A freshly out of college dude is a liability. Someone who at least showed they can mantain a job for 1 year +, shows that you can consistently show up and do enough work to not be immediatly fired.
I know a company that takes every fresh gradutate, and more than 50% every year is fired within the first 2 months.
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but getting in a completely unrelated field wont do me any good, will it?
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It will do you some good I think, but it might not be the best. If you have no experience in a job and want a ML job you better have good social skills and good knowledge, preferably with some projects to show it
you have misunderstood. There is a shortage of qualified people*. *Shortage of people who work for nothing and are abusable. They cant seem to find those anywhere.
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Maybe in Germany, but here it is really about getting people in general and secondary is getting those with just the right education+experience. More and more companies are taking less trained people, simply because there isn't enough trained ones regardless of what compensation they offer. Unemployment around or below 3% for a while brings such effects.
It's ridiculous, I have a bachelor in Artificial Intelligence and currently in my 2nd master year. I should have offers coming in left and right (and i did when i started my studies). Now no one is offering entry positions, let alone part time entry.
I suggest you educate yourself in a very specific topic and become a master at it, then apply for those positions.
lmao are u expecting to get into the workforce without knowing someone ?!?!
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That's honestly a really bad issue in Germany. Companies would rather sustain their incestuous hiring practices than hire based on merit.
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thats how the world works cant get anywhere without sucking a few dicks before
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show me yours
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ok here is a faitful representation
8========================================================================================D
accept the fact that all IT-places are taken by Russians in DE
Sounds pretty infuriating. I work in a marketing agency and after finishing my apprenticeship I wrote like 3 applications. I didnt hear a thing from the first two, but the 3rd was a pretty nice company with quite a good offer so I accepted and now I've been on the job for almost two years. Also getting a good company fpr apprenticeship was quite easy with about 15 applications. Imo that's still not too much.
Guess I was lucky. Wish all the best for you, surely you'll find a good job.
nga we are in recession what do you expect hahaha 😹
maybe they don't like your face?
Jk, a degree is just an entry barrier. you need a lot of experience in that field like apprenticeships etc to make yourself interesting from the pool of hundreds of applicants.
There is always someone who has more experience or skills in that exact position that you are applying for. Just make yourself stand out. Lie a bit, not too much tho.
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I had this problem for a short while in 2021. I was almost finishing my bachelors on one of the hardest unis of brazil and applying for low value software jobs that I could probably do in a quarter of the working hours while drunk.
The interviews always said "yeah we are looking for someone with more experience, we have no time/resources to spend on training".
When I finally got a job (for the shittiest pay possible, poverty wage), the managers were "impressed" I was learning too quickly. Like dude I have been learning this stuff for the past 4 years, how would I not know how to do it.
I don't know if this problem exists in Europe but here in Brazil you can get a bachelors from a random online university that do the absolute bare minimum to comply to state regulation on bachelors and basically just sell you the diploma with very easy exercises/exams during a few years. Obviously those people join the market and don't know how to do anything, and that becomes the norm for junior devs.
I'm telling you, when you get your first job you will be horrified at how many people are holding mid and senior positions at these companies and don't know how to solve the most basic obstacles like debugging your code or reading documentation.
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I witnessed that in my apprenticeship already, none kf my superiors had any idea what I was actually doing as their day to day work consisted of Excel, a bit of Power BI and like 6 hours of meetings.
My job was pretty much here we have this and this data set, see whether you can find something of value and thats it. The data sets, their formats, their contents and the hardware I was given to tackle these issues was so incredibly infuriating. ☠️
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honestly the first half of each meeting was usually just a bit of smalltalk, personal stuff and so on and then they discussed something about the projects they were working on and the other meetings they need to hold. no idea, when they actually worked on those projects. i could catch my supervisor for like 10 mins a day cause he was nonstop in meetings,
I had that experience not far long ago (literally 1-2 weeks ago). I finished my bachelor at 2021 as one of the best students of the course (in the middle of the pandemic), and I decided to start looking for job offers. I sent a lot of applications, and I did received one job proposal which I declined (it was a dumb move at the time but since the pandemic was an excellent time for IT companies, I decided to take the risk and try to have another offer from other companies). I miss a few online tests and didn't get any other offer (I fucked up). So I decided to focus on myself. 2021-2023 I did freelancing for local companies while pursuing a master's degree, built my web portfolio, went crazy on open-source, local projects and github, invested in my LinkedIn, networking, etc. At the beginning of 2023 I started applying again, but since we were (and are) facing a recession, most of those "entry-level/junior" positions were really rare. I tried everyday to send applications to companies but no response back from most of them or "you need to have more experience". 1 week ago I went to an interview and got the job offer for something that I'm really proud of.
Takeway: don't give up and invest in yourself, don't be dumb like me and accept everything now, you need experience. You'll eventually get there!
Yep. I'm returning to IT but it's highly competitive. Remote jobs are a gold mine if you find one. Just yesterday I've received this:
"Unfortunately, we received over 5,000 applications for this role and didn't get the opportunity to review your application."
There's WAY too many Indians which are willing to slave-wage and I'm also seeing a bazillion of Africans applying as well - every remote job on linkedin has +200 applicants. It's *HARD* to break the first barrier.
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wow, this fills me with hope lmao😀
People want money, not work.
i feel you man thats 100% true in germany
>15 applications I have sent so far, I have gotten 5 rejections
This is nothing lol. And online applications are easy come easy go. You can easily send hundreds.
Treat job hunting like it's a job in itself and you'll find a position in no time.
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They all kind of force you into submitting a personalited letter for each position and make you re-enter your CV into their own form every time. it takes quite a bit of time and honestly burns me out, cause i hate it so much
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I know it sucks ass. My last job hunt was a few years ago and I agree that it was very disheartening. But the work of inputting is not that hard. Just pretend you're getting paid to do it and it might feel easier. Every day you're not getting a salary is a lot of opportunity cost, so it's kinda true.
Idk if I even have room to speak though, after like a month or two of sending out a lot of apps and only getting offers at bad companies I received a message from a personal connection about their company's opening and skipped the online process altogether and that's how I got my current job, so i guess saying it's not so bad is hypocritical for me.
Also personally I saved putting a lot of effort into the CV for when it seemed like a really good position otherwise I kinda phoned it in. You do a few of them and you kinda learn to just stick to a format - "you ask for these skills in your listing and here's how my experience matches that" and you don't have to make TOO many edits.
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I'll send out another 10 today, thank you:)
Its the biggest BS. Its mainly companies not willing to pay enough. I dont think CEOS, CFOs or any management has ever checked local rent prices and thought to themselves maybe we should pay more so they don't have to pay 50% of their paycheck a month on rent alone.
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A lot of the time they can't actually afford to pay significantly more. Just because rent has gone up a lot doesn't mean businesses that have nothing to do with real estate suddenly have way more money. If anything their rent has probably gone up too.
The solution to the housing crisis is building new housing, we can't expect to bandaid through wages that businesses don't have funding for.
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Taxes aren't high compared to EU as far as I know. Rent is high and healthcare is expensive if you don't get it through your job.
The US is a huge country and cost of living is heavily associated with where you live especially rent prices. I personally live in new jersey which is a high cost of living area. I pay 2k per month for a condo that I own (I am paying off the mortgage still which is why the costs are so high). I make about 80,000 per year which means about 5500 per month actually arrives in my bank account, which means I live reasonably comfortably and can afford a lot of expenses as 3500 after housing payments is plenty enough to cover everything.
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Yeah in Germany this would look like 80k, 45k after taxes, making it around 3.75k a month, around 1.2k-1.8k will probably be rent leaving you with 1.9k for insurance, savings and all other living costs.
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EMS is always short staffed wich is a blessing and a curse simultaneously
got in on the first try
im getting 1k p/m => okay for turkey, terrible for the industry
also im working remotely and doing pretty much nothing but getting high and playing games
so is not that bad
There is no job offers in my country
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+1 knowing the right people and knowing to present yourself/being sociable nets you the greatest benefit.
don't know how that translates when your resume gets AI checked all of sudden lol
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Yeah, they ask you to enter your entire cv into their forms so they can just discard your application easier. It's likely they never get sent to a real person when i enter work experience < 1 year.
Currently studying to become Marketing Economic aka Marketing Management - Starting my own business on the side, with outsourcing/Selling high-end luxury sneakers, clothes and bags, trying to make it my career, or something to do with some sort of e-commerce or fashion
Idk about Europe but in NA that statement is true. I certainly don’t want to work
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in europe you have many job offers, but the thing that really interests companies is paying as less as possible instead of efficient problem solving. that's why normal people should ignore huge corporations and work for small teams where turnover per jobber is super high. there are many of those teams which don't really want to grow, they are easily the most profitable
idk about eu and na but in asia you can't do much without a degree (i mean you should have at least bachelors degree)
but in IT sphere you can get enough salary but for junior devs and starter IT specialists it is hard af to find a job, even with 1-3 years of experience is not enough nowadays. Everybody saying this is the result of crisis in big tech companies, but I think it is simply not the reason.
You can earn much money by being famous on youtube, insta and tiktok or starting a new business by taking a huge risk. That's literally the only way to earn more money in Asia
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That would make german media wrong, not really me
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Media all over the world would certainly like you to think they're never wrong.
I wish you luck with the job hunting bro <3
You're not getting jobs because either your resume sucks or you suck at interviewing, not because of your "qualifications"
Managers couldn't care less as long as you can do the work (most jobs are complete BS and can be done by 16 year olds)
If you're not getting interviews, it's because of your resume. If you're getting interviews but not offers, it's because of your interviewing. Simple
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I'd like to update this about two weeks later. I had 10 rejections in a row and now all of a sudden out of the 8 latest responses I have gotten 7 interviews. It's not even that the rejections were much faster than the interviews in response time. So either my writing skills have improved drastically within the last 10 applications or I was just very unfortunate.
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I sure as hell don't
As always in life, everything is easier and possible if you have the right connections. This will NEVER change.
People with brain understand that working hard usually not pays off
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