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Bravo lads. It was actually a very enjoyable event. I didnt expect Id be watching it as people called it a micky mouse event and i dont really want anything other than ESL/Blast/Majors
Tech difficulties happen in any event so it doesnt take away from the event, it just sucked we had to wait so long.
I rate it 8/10. single elim bo3's are so good man. you could tell the teams took this event serious because of this and it delivered some great matches.
It was enjoyable and I agree with you about the tech pause.
But I'm not so sure about single elim. Was Vitality really the best performing team at Gamers8? If we had an infinite simulator, would Gamers8 form Vitality beat G2 and ENCE in the majority of games? I'm not sure. The games were exciting, but I think the result is less confident and meaningful compared to a different event format.
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We're not talking about G2 bruh. Vitality is very consistent.
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-Play-off's in every single event so far
-Major win
-Ez 1mil$ tourney
-IEM Rio win.
They're probably going to win at least one more by the end of the year.
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Cope and seethe.
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The best performing team is the team that performs the best in the actual conditions of the tournament, not hypothetical ones.
Or did I miss something?
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How you define things is ultimately your choice.
CS has lots of variables. If we could restart the day over and over again we would not get the same exact game twice. In my book, the team that would win the most encounters is the better team. Its how you discount flukes (I'm not calling Vitality a total fluke - just that their G2 victory may have been). Since single elimination plays the least amount of games possible, the likelihood a team that would lose the majority of the time does better than they should is maximum.
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I would agree with this if it were Best of 1's and not best of 3.
the best of 3 aspect make it series, so if a ''fluke'' would occur, it would be extremely hard to happen twice within the same series, unless the team REALLY underperforms.
compared to a RMR where you play 2 best of 1, maybe even 3, and start playing BO3 at qualifying or losing stage, this isn't too different.
you only play in essence 1 more BO3 in a major if you go 3-0 and straight to finals.
so no, I don't think this format is a ''quick paced'' format. it's actually quite balanced.
a good example match 9ine vs G2:
(ine was essentially only good on 1 map and crumbled heavily on the other 2.
were it best of 1, G2 would have lost, been out, and the fluke would have happened.
the best of 3 negates this aspect of your argument essentially.
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Best of 3 certainly have less flukes than best of 1s but it's not as if they don't happen.
For some very well known examples, take GL-Heroic in Paris, or ENCE in Katowice 2019.
For another example, Vitality came back from an 0-2 deficit in IEM Bejing-Haidan against Na`Vi.
There are less examples, but they're not non-existent.
Bear in mind that when the gap between two teams is pretty close (for example, two teams at the top), it doesn't take much of a "fluke" to turn the tides completely one way.
It all depends how you define things, and at what level you're personally satisfied. Ultimately, the more games you play and the more maps you play in those games, the more reliable your result (for the same style of system). That's just fact.
EDIT: Of course, you physically can't play every matchup multiple times. That's why you compromise on reliability for practicality. Single elimination plays the minimum amount of games required to get a result.
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Except you always expect the better team to win.
now if you watch traditional sports, (for example football). you will see enough examples where the better team *loses*. it isn't always the best team that wins.
that does not mean the person who did win is a fluke, or should not deserve the win at all.
The flaw in your logic is also, that you put quantity of wins over quality of wins.
if you lose from for example FaZe in the upper bracket, and then in lower bracket beat up 3 Bo's in a row; MIBR, Grayhound and Fluxo, then arguably you are more consistent, but in reality you beat way weaker opponents.
It does not really matter at what point you define how you are satisfied, in reality it's all probability and who shows up what day. and if you are satisfied with the result or not, does not influence the outcome at all, only your own perception.
But it is by all means a false perception to think single elimination has more risks for upsets than a system with a lower bracket- the probability stays the same. the probability of it ocurring multiple times only becomes less, since there are more chances. it doesn't mean there is a higher chance of an upset happening.
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The better team doesn't always win. That's quite literally my point.
Because of the way brackets work, you'd have to beat a team that beat FaZe, or FaZe themselves to go on to perform (much) better (than FaZe) in the tournament.
There is a similar risk, and I never argue that. But the consequences are mitigated with a double elimination system. There is no such mitigation when you play the minimum number of games.
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Yes and no.
a lot of teams get invite spots due to status currently and are nowhere near the level of being fair competition in a lot of tournaments.
the lower bracket only serves at this point for our favourite cs go orgs to have a 2nd chance at a redemption arc should they fail to be consistent and beat teams who are in front of them.
I honestly like tournaments like these more as it's do or die, and teams also play differently and with more stubbornness and passion than in most other tournaments, where they just give up and prepare for lower bracket.
Sure, I wanna see FaZe go far in a tournament, but if they lose like they did against VP, no matter how close the game, it's a loss and they dont go through. simple as that. same in football really. (national cups, not intercontinental club competition).
To give them 1 or 2 more chances because on paper they are ''the better team'' is imo a pretty bad argument. you can only beat who is in front of you after all.
there is not a single sports where the ''best'' team or player has won 100% of all their matches, and there never will.
I'm more for equal and open tournaments rather than T1 tournaments giving top teams 4 chances to qualify.
the lower bracket only serves for top teams who have an off-day to get back into it and destroy the lower tier teams their once in a lifetime runs.
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I agree with being against partnerships. Weird that you bring it up, though, I never mentioned it.
Really, your argument's crux is at the bottom here.
I'm going to assume you like to see a once in a lifetime run result in a tournament win. To me, that makes the tournament is less meaningful if some random guys can appear, take it, and then disappear just as quick. I don't mind it for tournaments like Gamers8 where nobody really puts a lot of weight behind it anyway. But people saying it's a preferred format for events like Kato, Cologne, or the Major is nonsense to me.
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That's fair, and I do agree to that extend as well; I prefer seeing my favourite and strong teams over runs like these at meaningful events.
I solely took partnered teams as an example to show how unevenly balanced most big tournaments (mainly blast) are though.
It;s not the preferred system, which is true. but I do think we lack quite the amount of tournaments like Gamers8 and it's format in modern CS.
we need more diversity in types of events and formats in general.
I do not need a lower tier team to win a tournament, but I do feel like calling it a fluke run and downtalking it is kind of offensive towards the hard work they put in as well.
We also are lucky that we are at a place in time where basically anyone in the top 30 can beat each other on any random day. maybe not counting Heroic (unless it's playoffs) and Vitality. so consistency is even harder to reach.
but yeah to come back to it; for Kato, Cologne, Major format to me is actually fine.
only thing I dislike about Major are the best of 1's and how they calculate the seeding.
just make it entirely random, excluding teams you already played prior obviously.
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I agree we need more diversity in events. We are far too dominated by ESL and BLAST. Even Gamers8 is just ESL. We're desperately missing the DreamHacks, the ECSs, the Starladders, from our pool.
As for calling it a fluke, I'd only go so far if the team appeared and disappeared. If it's hard work paying off you wouldn't just immediately fall off a cliff afterwards.
I also agree that the Major system is flawed, but there isn't a particularly easy fix for it. The simplest is to make all matches best of 3 but that makes the stages longer than Valve clearly wants.
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Your first sentence is so horribly wrong.
We are not talking about your fantasy world, but about what happened. I don't define things, you don't. They are what they are.
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Well, read, use eyes + brain cells, connect words to concepts.
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It's only in later comments that you described what a fluke is, not in the one I replied to.
"How you define things is ultimately your choice."
-> sure
"If we could restart the day over and over again [...]"
-> I know it's a video game they're playing, but the tournament itself isn't one. Your "could", "ifs" don't matter.
"In my book [editor's note: lol], the team that would win the most encounters is the better team"
-> sure again
All of these points prove that you live in fantasy, where the better team is a fiction.
Don't bother to embarrass yourself any further.
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You can't be wrong obviously.
But maybe if we restart this discussion infinitely I would be winning, at least in my book. Ultimately it is my choice.
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There is no perfect system. But some are more reliable than others. Still, I definitely have my issues with the major's swiss system. Since Swiss is a different system to a simple bracket, you can't compare their reliability on games played alone. Swiss is helpful for sifting through large groups in a short amount of time, but you sacrifice reliability for the sake of said time.
"If we could restart the day over and over again we would not get the same exact game twice."
You don't say 😱
by your logic if any upset happens, it is not impressive because if we simulate that same match many times, then the underdog wont win more than the favourite
thats why any sports is interesting - you can expect the unexpected
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but randoms teams dont win these events, so i guess it is fine
every once in a while a team that is considered worse wins, but it happens in every sports
all these players are professionals, they invest 10h a day for years, not like the upsets are happening by random global elites. everyone in like hltv top 40 trains for crazy ammount of years.
I think it was yekindar or simple who said that any team in top 20 or top30 can defeat anyone on good day. the skill for these players is there, just the team structure usually is not on the level with big orgs which have 2 analysts, coaches, assistan coaches and big experience. these upsets happening is not really that big of a surprise for me atleast
You are pretending that g2 would be better overall than vitality, and would won more game if played indefinitly.
Prove it or at least justify it...
The headTohead between this two teams is in favor of vitality, and only in 2023 it's 4 victory for vitality and only 1 for g2
So please get out of your fantasy world, your mathematics won't save you from your mental bias.
Overall of course you are right, the more you play the less you have underdog surprise, but stay factual...
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I'm not saying that. I'm saying I can't be sure either way. Given we have two conflicting results from Cologne to Gamers8, I'd say that's pretty factual. Here, I'm really just giving it as an example of how a result from a single elimination bracket can be doubted more than a result from a more reliable style.
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Yes because saying vitality win over g2 while they already won 4/5 H2H in 2023 is a "fluke" is not the extreme...
Maybe just "extremely" stupid
Anyway, to answer your point, nobody want a "bo50" system.
Fluke are part of the game.
Lets pretend we can do bo50, every single tournament will be won by heroic or vitality.
How interesting is this...
Surprise and fluke are part of the game, and if it was up to me, everything would be on bo1.
Nobody care which is best team overall.
We care which team go through the different step of the tournament, we vibrate on heroic saving match point against mongolz and nobody vibrate more than seeing underdogs shittings of top team.
When top team are losing against underdogs, you a multiple "laugh" thread created here because people love to see that.
So ok, we all know our basic probablity stuff and the law of large numbers thank you, we know that on a bo50 there is no way that EG win over G2, thank you captain obvious.
But we don't give a shit and we are seeking for emotion during a tournament
I liked the format. Short and sweet tournament
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+1
EPL is fun, teams dont need to worry about flying to a new location every couple days and gives teams time to reach their best form. Plus the casting and hosting is all super chill and open so we get real insights from players and see their headspace.
+1
Good format but holy shit that dogshit song that the played every break was so fucking bad. Auto tune garbage. Some trash Saudi artist. It killed the entire event for me. At least have a variety of trash if trash is what you have.
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I find it interesting that even in single elimination bracket the top 4 teams still reached the semifinals. We don't need triple elimination like in EPL or Blast groups.
Gamers8 is hosted by ESL
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Aside from horribly long tech pause in grand finals, which was rather unacceptable (why not return to desk to fill the void?), here are some points they could improve on:
- music between each round (annoying)
- music between maps (too few)
- crowd (there are more people waiting for bread in my local bakery)
- some other technical issues (I recall this FlameZ interview announced by desk, JKS interview instead, but that was quite funny)
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as for your crowd comment, gamers8 was a much larger event than that 4 - 5 days of CSGO. while the cs games were running inside there were many more events going outside, tyga and couple other well known djs performing live etc.
the cs games were going on like if someone wanted to sit inside and chill for a bit here are the best teams in the world performing for u. so it was not the typical esl/blast event which are organized mainly for the csgo fans. this was more like a smaller event inside a much more bigger event.
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+1
probably just bored teen that wanted to make a tournament
I want to also express appreciation of your flair. How great that a EU person likes my nice country, Russia. <3
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holy shit based
Meds.
Young, WIld and Free
LIVING YOUNG, WILD AND FREEEEEEE
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+1
single elimination matches are awesome and best of all is that B01 wasn't a thing.
Imagine if they added b01, Furia Faze 9nine would've passed to the second round
thanks saudis
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no. both arent.
my point is that being against apartheid and illegal occupation doesnt make you an antisemite. the zionist government is able to get away with what they want because of that word.
Besides, Arabs are semites too so how are they going to be anti themselves?
That word is used way too quick man.
bruh that was the only good part
The real final was G2 vs Vitality but yea was enjoyable event, I don't personally mind single elimination formats, it's a welcomed variation and it's like a large playoffs, every match matters equally much and teams therefore are extra tryhard since start, you could certainly tell all teams took the event/matches seriously, just some were unexpectingly poor like Heroic 0-2 vs Ence eventhough I suppose Ence were in a quite good shape.
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I think G2 in the other bracket could have been a big difference. Niko was sleeping the first map. I think he only had like 2 kills most of the first half. Jks topfrag is not good. I think they definitely could have taken heroic if ence could lol. Maybe could have beaten Vitality if they were warmed up.
indeed it was good, however the esl hud instead of their own hud really sucks
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yea esl has one of the best huds but still, pretty unoriginal from gamers8 to just copy+paste
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i didnt know, sry my bad
Way better to have a bunch of playoff games instead of 2 weeks of groups + 3 playoff games
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Bar the production anomalies, the event was incredible fun to watch.
All the best teams qualified and duked it out in a super tense single-elimination bracket - G2 vs Vitality was probably the best series in the entire tournament.
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Easily a contender. :D
Very very Nice event indeed, a positive surprise! :D
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Most definitely.
I don't think anybody expected this event to be as good as it was. ^^
liked it
i love sportswashing!
I mostly enjoyed saudi memes in twitch chat. Like dr sulaiman xD sportswashing at its peak. They will be irrelevant once we get rid of oil dependencies
Yeah, finally something fresh - Play-off without lower bracket is the most entertaining system ever, just pure fight for trophy as it should be!
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