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I find it interesting that many big YouTubers like Mr.Maxim and 3kliksphilip seem like they're almost trying to prove that tick-rates vs sub tick don't matter and that CS2 is just as reliable. Kinda fishy while there are tons of clips and examples, even some very technical breakdowns and even reviews by pros, that completely contradict what they are saying. What's especially weird is if you look back a couple weeks and see their content now it's like they are being forced to slowly walk things back. Why are they pushing a narrative that the amateur and pro community is pointing out is obviously inaccurate?
I think some of the pros rely heavily on mouse commands (mousespeed w/e) for almost a decade and even the slightest accel is prolly fucking their aim
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what are u talking about bro
if tickrate didn't make a difference valve wouldn't have locked all cs2 servers to 64 tick
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+1
I guess they will unlock that after the game is release (for third parties), like other commands that are locked now, but it makes sense that in a beta, you want everybody to play the same exact build at the same exact manner so if there's bugs, you don't need to figure out if that guy is using anything different that breaks the game, just windows version and pc builds are enough headache when it comes to track bugs that are not happening to everybody.
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+1
true
philip did scientific research to prove his point while pros simply say "mouz slow therefore bad loooool"
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His research is flawed and ignores the majority of findings. Did you not read the post?
wake me up when philip is a pro player
3kliksphillip’s video isn’t really meant to be saying CS2 is just as good, I think that’s pretty sensitive and biased if ur boiling it down to that, its just showing the flaws of one specific analysis that people were touting as super technical and deep and correct, which is pretty smart because he’s saving the community from believing a clearly flawed “study.”
Its just not that big of a deal, and optimism doesn’t mean that they’ve been paid off
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I never said they were paid off, I don't think I insinuated that either. I do think that their brands are reliant on the success and investment in this game though.
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I think “they were forced to walk it back” and “kinda fishy” are examples of language that imply ulterior motive, and being paid off is the only one that makes sense. They make money per view, which means criticizing the changes is easily as profitable. If philip specifically criticized things, I guarantee that gets tons of attention. The success of this game is guaranteed by playerbase size—that has never been a concern for the creators in the space. I think its pretty simple to look at their videos and just realize that they are making pretty objective evaluations of what they’re seeing, and you shouldn’t hold it against them that there is sometimes a bit of optimism in their analysis just because you have seen others have pessimism.
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Then why are they misrepresenting various findings and not covering well documented bugs or doing thorough investigation? Data and statistics can be framed to represent almost anything you want no matter how objective it seems. I've watched these guys for years and this is the first time I've been disappointed since anyone can prove that there is an input lag problem easily simply by hopping in a practice server and runnings some commands. If I say it's fishy or they walked it back it is because they did and it doesn't make sense to me.
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+1
3kliksphlilip latest video has only one motive, to discredit any negative attention to CS2. He has early access and is definitely a map tester/dev internally for valve. Man is filled with conflict of interest from all angles.
Here's one comment (there are a majority if you scroll the recent comments in his video) talking about 3kliksphilip not even watching/understanding the tickrate/input delay issues of the video he's discrediting. In simple words, he's being a shill for valve.
i.imgur.com/LINQSfj.png
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There are multiple videos that have disproven Philips answer and I cover that in the original post. Did you even finish reading what I said?
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The original post has zero clear references to any specific videos going against what philip says—and most of the popular clips complaining or claiming to prove the opposite were from before he made his video. You did not cover even a single example (and you also claimed they’re “walking it back” when there’s no examples of that either), so maybe you didn’t finish writing what you think you did?
Idk why we even need to discuss this. The current cs2 lag/tickrate system is obviously worse than csgos. Anyone saying something else is weird.
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even reddit has the testing proof
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I haven´t tested the game myself. Do you have something to back this up? Most of the player base seem to agree that there are lag problems of different sorts.
ropz tested it and knew 6 times in a row when it was 64 tick.
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ye he got 100% correct if it's 64 or 128 out of 30 times. that's insane and proves that for competitive play playing on 64 tick, probably subtick as well, will be of disadvantage. hooray we won't be able to see the highest peek pro players can achieve isn't that.. exciting...
Unless somehow tournaments will have 128 ticks?
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Yeah, I think that proved for the final time that anyone like 3kliks or MrMaxim (who have both claimed multiple times that it doesn't make a difference) were incorrect. With all of this CS2 stuff and pros just out of the blue calling stuff that turns out to be accurate, I've started discounting the youtube's opinions. If a pro is 100% right in a blind test, I don't think thats refutable.
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+1 Very true, I don't think it is just a sub tick issue, but in their videos they have repeatedly made comments about how it is more accurate and reliable than CSGO which is provably and irrevocably false. Back then is one thing, I'm more surprised that they are currently saying things that pros have proven the opposite of, random YouTubers have proven the opposite of, and even a casual player could prove isn't true just through a couple console commands.
I mean generally speaking it´s pretty absurd to completely discredit opinions of the very best individuals in any given context :D
That test did not seem proper although we didn't see full footage.
Test subjects were in communication with the tester
Test subjects chosen have no basis for being 'average' user, subjects need to be expanded or use a ton of data to find typical players at each level
Non-pro only tap to identify tick whereas ropz used burst/spray. In normal gameplay a non-pro would also burst/spray.
10 or 30 tests single pass is too little to be concrete, it is subject to random answers from non-pros. Flip a coin 10 times 10 times, I bet on some of those you don't get 50/50 or even 60/40.
There is an argument that each subject should have had an equal number of each tick test too, especially with how low count the tests were. If you had 9 64 tick tests at random, what is to say you can be confident their final test 10 of 128tick answer was not pure chance? The argument of if they know one they know the other is again not good testing.
I agree with hypothesis Ropz knows more than the average player, but the test is flawed so we can't draw any conclusions.
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Flawed or not, just the fact he couldn't realibly b-hop and especially jump on Nuke silo with ease when tickrate was lower proves that pro play will not be able to peek as high as it possibly could. It's like giving a footballer shoes that weight a lot. and while they will still perform, it will obviously not be 100% to what they're capable of
Subtick has one job, hit registration, and it does that very accurately.
The lag/lag compensation problem is still real and not entirely explainable by tick rate.
Frame times still feel really off, somehow it manages to look choppy with 500fps, but is not explainably by tick rate.
Anyway, it's software, not rocket science, they'll sort it out sooner or later.
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+1 they lower interp once already, just wait when they lower it to values you use in csgo
This. But both sides are right, subtick is great and far better than what we had on csgo in 64 or 128 ticks, the problem is that subtick with 64 ticks doesn't work well with animations and creates some delay that would be less noticeable at 128ticks.
Still with both things, there's still others happening that needs to be polished before pro competitive.
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It’s undoubtedly better than 64tic MM ever was on CSGO.
For me it’s not as good as 128tic faceit yet.
I am confident it’ll be as good as that once tweaked.
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these people live off the content they can create with counterstrike. imagine cs2 will be a total flop (what it looks like at the moment). then the income would suffer a lot. that's what they want to avoid.
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>imagine cs2 will be a total flop (what it looks like at the moment)
Even if Valve were to release the absolute top garbage game ever, it would never die. That would be ignoring the history of the game. It has been in several iterations (early GO, source, etc.) which has been far more or less bad than CS2. The game is fundamentally unkillable because the core gameplay will always be the same.
But I do agree that a lot of these influencers are cringe with their shilling for Valve because they are afraid of losing their income, this is noticeable with some pros as well haha.
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Maybe, maybe not... just speculating here, sub-tick kinda works like lag compensation, maybe something in this process is messing up!?
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So u managed to go behind a wall, but the sub ticked remember that a year ago ur crosshair was on his head for a millisecond and sub tick registered that and send trough dimensions to find its intended target?
Also what about when im about to go around a corner start to pre fire early while running but i haven't yet turned the corner but my enemy is dead, does sub tick look in to the future as well? :D
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but this is also what makes it even more peekers advantage, no?
In your/theirs logic,
you can peek a standing CT, get the kill, before your model has gotten to the 'right' spot.
So your bullet is fired and more precise than their models, which is a problem.
So many times you get shot at when e.g. T is peeking and you don't even have the time to react since they've already gone around corner and shot before the model has 'appeared'.
Which is also why you see so many run and gun kills, and you do not even notice that they've stopped and shot, even if they have.
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the peekers advantage has increased, I would say quite a bit, to where it becomes a problem.
And with CT economy and less rounds it makes it even more T side.
And yes It's not thaaat bad, but it's worse IMO, to the point where it needs to be looked at.
I've noticed it a hell of a lot, but hey, it's still beta and this sub-tick will improve for sure and become better than 128 tick or whatever. So i'm not really worried.
*Models need to be responding faster to what is happening in-game.
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It has increased for sure but it's not that bad because it means that no one can just stay still (like in retakes cts can also punish ts if they just stay afk). For me the biggest problem is delayed visual representation of shooting. Because I can't wait for it to appear in the next tick, most of the time I just stop shooting when I feel like I get the kill and it got registered in sub tick.
Welcome to 2023 where everything is corrupted.
Ropz guessing 30/30 what tickrate he plays on proved it makes a difference, but that's not what 3kliksphillip was trying to say. He said that when most people bitch about tickrate it's a placebo and that the average player won't be able to tell the difference. The same video that ropz guessed 30/30 (on natosaphix's channel) neok (lvl 10 FACEIT) got worse results than some rando (less than half meaning if he guessed randomly he would've statistically guess better)
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CS2 have new netcode. So the whatever differences and issues it have, you can't be sure if those are due to lack of polish or due to tickrate. Where there is difference to be somehow felt, there is also question whenever it's actually relevant or if it even is in fact would be fixed with 128tick. And if there are actual difference that makes 128tick better, you also can't be sure if the current 64 tick can't be improved to rectify that difference. You can't apply CSGO's 64vs128 tick on CS2.
In short, the discussion is corrupted by people just using the 64 number as universal scapegoat for whatever issues they have with CS2 netcode.
You need to carefully listen what 3kliks is saying and use your brain. He has some understanding of coding, software and how server client networks in general work, which average CS user (even pros like ropz or s1mple seem to lack). So does Maxim. It's honestly just general knowledge and common sense required to get what they are saying.
See there is often miscommunication between technicians/developers and users, why you need people like 3kliks who know both worlds. Yes, pros and many players will notice a difference or flaws, but they will often totally get the reason for it wrong (i.e. tickrate).
What 3kliks for example was pointing out is, that while the feeling of it being "off" is true, the reason why it's feeling off is not what they believe. And the tests were flawed and while they found "something", they got causality and correlation wrong.
It's not too hard to understand, how tickrate, subtick, server state, client state, network ping, visual feedback and interpolation work. It's actually super simple to get a basic understanding of that.
3kliks and Maxim are doing a great job at explaining this as if they were talking to 5 year olds. It's really not that hard to follow.
Im sorry to be so direct, but people who dont get this might just be too unintelligent in the stem / logical thinking department (which is nothing bad, everybody has their own qualities).
Again, this doesnt mean that some users and pros aren't right that something is off, it definitely is. It's just not the reason they think it is.
You comment proves that it's useless to explain something to people who are not capable to get a grip on it. That's why Valve doesnt even try anymore. One could say that 3kliks and Maxim are a bit of some naive romantics who still try even though it's like throwing pearls to swine...
If you want to help, give objective feedback to Valve about what bad you experience and leave the analysis and solution to the professionals. It's okay to admit that one doesnt understand everything. But dont rant about it than please.
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I think your take on the subject seems very reasonable. Which makes me want to hear your opinion on the "economical" side of this.
They have the biggest fps title out there, so they definitely have an incentive to hire shills.
It seems like the most important thing for Valve is to keep monetizing CS.
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Whether or not 3kliks and Maxim get money directly from Valve is highly speculative.
I personally believe that both of them are credible, especially 3kliks who I for instance watch more often. He has always been pointing out flaws in CS and I see him more like the investigative journalist / tech nerd guy. Even if he was paid by Valve to create content, I still believe he would be credible and wouldnt sell out or say anything, that he doesnt believe is true. Would that make him a shill? Maybe yes, maybe no.
Other thing is I doubt that Valve would pay content creators to advertise the game in such a way. Valve is still privately owned by Gabe who runs the company as he deems right. It's not a big stock corporation. I honestly believe that Gabe and Valve wouldnt bother, from how they behaved in the past. Their business model is based on quality products and trust. Valve never emphasized marketing. They dont show up at Gamescom or other events, they dont give release dates and dont advertise much. Instead they provide games that last a decade or longer and that's why people have so much trust in them with their skins and so on. I dont see a hidden marketing campaign where Valve wouldnt advertise openly but secrectly pay content creators to do it for them. People are going wild about CS2 even if Valve does no ads at all.
Fact is, CS2 is exciting and everybody is hyped now. A change needs to happen if CS wants to stay relevant, too many limitations with the old engine. Whether people like or dislike the changes, everyone follows the news and gets in the discussion right now. That's the best PR one could have and it's for free.
I'd say it's more likely that 3kliks and Maxim are actually doing what they love right now and try to provide insight and maybe balance out some of the very loud and unqualified critique. If you're a CS content creator, that is your time of the decade right now. In my personal eyes, they are both credible and genuine, but I could be wrong though since it's all just speculation.
What's your opinion on that?
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Well tbh, im not in a position to argument too much on your points, but generally speaking, what you are saying sounds very logical. You seem to know what you are talking about.
From a market perspective I´d like to speculate. The public/private stock point definitely gives them more breathing space, but i don´t think it takes all the pressure off from them. CS and their skins might be more important to them than what one might think, so they can´t affrod to loose their income from CS. Then again I don´t really know this man and the other half of stock holders so it´s difficult for me to analyze it.
As you said it´s highly speculative, but I just have a feeling that this follows the general trends of the gaming wold, in which you chase the big money - and the big money chases you. I respect Gabe...
superyachtnews.com/fleet/dssv-pressure-d..
...but whatever his motives are, he has to adapt. If he wants to keep being the richest dude in the gaming industry he has to fight for it. It would also be naive to forget that they are heavily involved in gambling, selling video-game cosmetics and associated products.
To end this I want to emphasize that all just said is pure speculation. I haven´t even played CS2.
being unintelligent is the thing that cs players are the best at
did you even watch the videos properly XD
MrMaxim talks about the benefits of sub-tick and that it works. But he also goes over how sub-tick has flaws that need fixing and the limitations that come with using sub-tick.
Just because he isn't crying like a man-child we know, doesn't mean he isn't criticising.
Also I highly doubt Valve are at all influencing the content these guys are making lmfao
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Because influencers are casual bots who make content to appeal to the lowest common denominator.
issue with this debate is that 99.9% of the people don't have a clue what they're talking about.
64 sub tick is better than any 64 tick system so we have that thing going for us. Most of the issues people see come from client assumptions of what should happen and those things can be tuned.
64 sub tick has potential to be on par or better than 128, but such things take time.
What you see in your client is almost never what's actually happening.
It's wrong of Valve to cap it to 64 tick, very wrong.
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Actually not what 3kliksphilip was saying in any of his videos, but suuuuure go off champ
bro is watching philip's videos with his eyes closed
i was playing faceit for 4 years on 128tickrate and now in cs2 its unplayable the game is twitchy everything is like lagging
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