Buchholz seeding to be used in PGL Major Swiss stages

Together with Valve the organizers have brought back the seeding system that was used at the FACEIT Major in 2018.

PGL has announced that the Buchholz seeding system will be used in the Challengers and Legends Swiss stages, a system that utilizes in-tournament results to order teams by the difficulty of their opponents in previous rounds (opponents' combined score) and help determine matchups among teams with the same win-loss record.

With Buchholz only being usable from the third round on, the previously announced initial seeding, which is based on the Regional Major Ranking standings and on the perceived strength of regions, will be used in the second round of each Swiss stage.

The FACEIT Major utilized the Buchholz seeding system

That means that in the Challengers stage, the first and second round will be based entirely on the pre-determined seeding, before Buchholz takes over as the primary seeding system in rounds three, four, and five, to separate the teams with the same record.

The first round of the Legends stage will use a combination of the pre-determined seeding for the eight Legends and the results for the other eight teams coming from the Challengers stage. Round two will once again use the pre-determined seeding based on RMR standings, before round three begins to utilize the Buchholz system.

For the playoffs, Buchholz seeding will be used to separate teams with the same record in the Legends stage (two 3-0 teams, three 3-1, and three 3-2) to determine the matchups in the bracket.

Read more
Searching for the perfect format

The PGL rulebook lists the following example to explain how the Buchholz system works:

Buchholz example:
- Your team has a 0-2 record (two losses) and your prior opponents are 2-0 and 1-1. Your tiebreaker score is 2 (your prior opponents have 3 wins total, and 1 loss total, so 3-1 = 2)

- Another team is 0-2 (two losses), and their prior opponents are both 1-1. Their tiebreaker score is 0 (the prior opponents have 2 wins and 2 losses in total, so 2-2 = 0)

- This means your team has the higher seed with a Buchholz score of 2 vs 0 due to stronger opponents.

- In cases where teams are still tied. Initial Team Seeding is used.

As a reminder, the pre-determined seeding used in the early rounds in the two Swiss stages looks as follows:

Challengers stage

Legends stage

9. Challengers stage 3-0 team
10. Challengers stage 3-0 team
11. Challengers stage 3-1 team
12. Challengers stage 3-1 team
13. Challengers stage 3-1 team
14. Challengers stage 3-2 team
15. Challengers stage 3-2 team
16. Challengers stage 3-2 team
sounds based af
2021-10-24 14:10
20 replies
#4
 | 
Spain BlaNcoW
true
2021-10-24 14:11
8 replies
Is there anywhere a simulator where you could play trough the major with your own predictions? (There was a site for it at previous majors, but I have no idea about it now?)
2021-10-24 15:29
7 replies
If there exsisted one currently it would probably not include this new seeding making it innacurate since it seems like it was just announced
2021-10-24 15:49
1 reply
Faze lmao
2021-10-24 16:06
#86
 | 
Cyprus Swishh_
i was looking for one as well, can you pm me if you find one please, or reply to this comment, thanks! edit : something like this berlin.wa.vg/ edit2 : found it! major.ieb.im/21stockholm
2021-10-24 17:27
4 replies
Thanks! This is fun to play with
2021-10-25 00:25
#118
 | 
Australia Chereska
+1 Thanks
2021-10-25 03:20
#120
 | 
Denmark theHeniek
It's incorrect, mouz got eliminated
2021-10-25 10:04
great find, thank you
2021-10-25 10:52
agree
2021-10-24 14:12
+1 This actually sounds like a great system. Makes it a lot more fairer than a typical swiss group, where only the team's own win-loss record decides the opponents (That would be more unfair than current system). Good Job.
2021-10-24 14:32
3 replies
You can still carry on a 2-0 facing weak teams (i.e. tyloo, renegades, paiN, and so on) and not be such a strong opponent, giving away free tiebreaker points to a lucky losing rival on an upset.
2021-10-24 14:58
2 replies
That's why the buchholz kicks in from the 3rd round. Without this, it is possible to keep getting lucky draws even after being a weak team and getting 2-0 over even weaker teams. I will lose to stronger teams, while the teams that lost to me, might win here and there. The tiebreaker points will be distributed in such a way that the distribution of points will spread out the possibility of outliers like me. It won't absolutely stop it, but it's definitely better.
2021-10-24 15:07
1 reply
+1
2021-10-24 15:12
#37
 | 
Romania DZthebest
waytoodank
2021-10-24 14:35
#45
 | 
Poland Hanse
BASED ON WHAT
2021-10-24 14:46
2 replies
The facts
2021-10-24 15:07
Deez nuts
2021-10-24 15:24
#46
Freya | 
Philippines J4DEM
I can only do 1 +1
2021-10-24 14:54
BUCHHOLZ THA MVP
2021-10-24 19:15
good format even though some teams always end up unlucky only playing against the best teams
2021-10-24 14:12
6 replies
Always gonna happen, but that is exactly what this system tries to even out as much as possible.
2021-10-24 14:15
3 replies
#34
ropz | 
Estonia Infera
Agreed, if some team plays against the best teams and loses every single one, then they shouldnt even have a chance to get forward with the competition because they clearly arent good enough.
2021-10-24 14:32
2 replies
but at the same time tyloo playing vs sharks vs godsent etc ending up qualifying shouldnt happen as well :D
2021-10-24 15:24
1 reply
#59
ropz | 
Estonia Infera
Thats why contenders stage will weed them out :D Also they play based on the wins, if they win 2 matches and play against other team with 2 matches, It will show who actually is better. So hopefully we will get an awesome major with very cool upsets :)
2021-10-24 15:26
#38
 | 
Romania DZthebest
welcome to major
2021-10-24 14:35
It is way better than round robin though where some games can ultimately become pointless for either team or both
2021-10-24 15:51
#5
 | 
Finland Doto_top1
faze LuL
2021-10-24 14:11
#6
 | 
Serbia Jnordz
Ehh
2021-10-24 14:12
#7
siuhy | 
Australia Breeww
Confusing? Yes
2021-10-24 14:12
5 replies
Yes
2021-10-24 14:13
is it really tho? i think basic subtraction is something most 7-8 yos understand
2021-10-24 14:17
2 replies
Link me your spreadsheet that you worked on on late night stream
2021-10-24 15:31
THen explain it to me like i'm a 7-8yo please
2021-10-24 15:41
2021-10-24 15:31
n1
2021-10-24 14:12
The seeding is a joke lol
2021-10-24 14:14
3 replies
It's based in rmr points , how can u say it's a joke. Eg being in legends is a joke
2021-10-24 14:16
2 replies
It doesn't represent the situation in reality and it's kinda useless. You have matchups like Renegades-Movistar, and then you have Spirit-Faze, not balanced at all.
2021-10-24 14:20
NA scene atrophied from being unable to travel to Europe. It made a little more sense two years ago. Even then CIS should have 2 of those legend spots and NA 2 challenger slots instead.
2021-10-24 14:23
weird
2021-10-24 14:14
The system is nice but the seeding is still crap so its pointless.
2021-10-24 14:15
interesting. improves the situation a little bit, but overall still pretty oof because of the trash initial seeding for the first 2 rounds.
2021-10-24 14:15
#16
 | 
Ukraine Sla1ter
ok
2021-10-24 14:15
too hard for my mind to understand tbh
2021-10-24 14:24
2 replies
2021-10-24 15:31
1 reply
Ah I see I see. This is a great addition then! TY Mr. Dane.
2021-10-24 20:06
NIP top 1 seed POG
2021-10-24 14:18
#21
 | 
Czech Republic forseti12
Worst seeding ever
2021-10-24 14:18
cool, but how did you prioritize teams which are already in legends stage? For example by RMR points Navi is #1, but they will meet 3-1 team but same time FURIA will meet 3-0 team?
2021-10-24 14:19
2 replies
#55
 | 
India shavar2099
legends is also based on rmr points: (Eu#1, Na#1, Cis#1), (Eu#2, Na#2, Cis#2), (Eu#3, Na#3) Edit: spacing
2021-10-24 15:15
1 reply
Which is absolutely bullshit to think that Furia > Navi, Vitality and Gambit. Idk mens... Also, would this mean that NIP & Furia would be playing 3-2 teams?
2021-10-25 12:49
NiP and Furia better seeds than NaVi or Gambit lol
2021-10-24 14:19
Na'Vi - Vitality final
2021-10-24 14:20
buttholz XDDDD
2021-10-24 14:21
butthole seeding
2021-10-24 14:21
#28
 | 
Ukraine futplxyer
nice
2021-10-24 14:21
can somebody simulate what it looks like if certain teams win?
2021-10-24 14:25
5 replies
If I lose 2 times against 2 strong teams, my score is 0-2 If you lose 2 times against 2 weak teams, your score is 0-2 Under regular swiss system, we have equal seeding cuz both are 0-2 But with this new system, my buchholz score will be higher than yours, because the teams that I lost to, will actually beat many other teams (cuz they were strong). The teams that you lost to, will lose many times cuz they were weak, and so your buchholz score is low. Therefore, even if we are both 0-2, I will have better seeding than yours, which is fair since I am stronger. Pretty simple?
2021-10-24 15:30
3 replies
Ty for explaining, pretty s0mple
2021-10-24 17:18
ty
2021-10-25 00:04
Not really bro, what determines "strong" and "weak" teams? Since their explanation in this article in unlogical: "Another team is 0-2 (two losses), and their prior opponents are both 1-1. Their tiebreaker score is 0 (the prior opponents have 2 wins and 2 losses in total, so 2-2 = 0)" - this is mathematically impossible in swiss stage for the first two rounds, cause there is always a team who is 2-0, a team that is 1-1 and the team that is 0-2. Or did I get something wrong here?
2021-10-25 03:09
#88
 | 
Cyprus Swishh_
maybe you're looking for something like this major.ieb.im/21stockholm
2021-10-24 17:31
#31
 | 
Poland Amirek
"- This means your team has the higher seed with a Bulchholz score of 2 vs 0 due to stronger opponents." shouldn't it be buchcholz? hltv ples fix
2021-10-24 14:25
1 reply
#54
 | 
Poland Amirek
thenx hltv you fixed it
2021-10-24 15:13
Butchholtz was so bad at the 2018 major
2021-10-24 14:26
2 replies
#39
 | 
Czech Republic PaYaB
+1
2021-10-24 14:36
Why?
2021-10-25 15:13
sounds very confusing to a non-english speaker
2021-10-24 14:26
can we have somebady make excel sheet or something like that where you can pick winners and it will create the next matches so we can do pickems with knowing the matches? I remember someone made it for kato 19, he made a dedicated site for it
2021-10-24 14:35
14 replies
#56
 | 
India shavar2099
2021-10-24 15:17
11 replies
oh shit thanks, thats what I needed :D
2021-10-24 15:52
1 reply
#83
 | 
India shavar2099
happy to help :D
2021-10-24 17:15
BIG THANKS
2021-10-24 17:31
8 replies
#90
 | 
India shavar2099
Its not mine but you're welcome!
2021-10-24 17:41
7 replies
Have you downloaded excel table and tried to change predictions? Whenever i input W or L into yellow squares excel crashes.
2021-10-24 17:59
6 replies
It is working for me
2021-10-24 18:17
2 replies
Do you just type L or W in yellow squarebox and it works? Let's say i think that Team Spirit will win Faze in first matchup and when i type W near team Spirit it just crashes. Excel 2016 btw, but i dont think this is a big deal
2021-10-24 18:20
Nvm, i tried it with the second table and it works but kinda buggy
2021-10-24 18:24
#98
 | 
India shavar2099
I just open a new Google sheets link and input it, but since it crashes on the 2nd try I just start from scratch (without saving)
2021-10-24 18:29
2 replies
Just tried in google sheets and it works fine now. Since i had no idea how to redact the file because there was only "view mode" available so i downloaded it on pc and opened with excel but it crashed every time. Then i upload this file again in google sheets and it works. Damn i am such a newbee with these office programs despite the fact that I have been using a computer for more than 13 years :D
2021-10-24 18:40
1 reply
Im still same lmao
2021-10-24 19:37
Use this instead for predictions since it is much easier to use (just click icons of who you think will win) major.ieb.im/21stockholm Source: #86
2021-10-24 21:21
1 reply
Yeah this one is exactly what I used in the kato 19, this one is what I meant, ty
2021-10-25 08:19
Famous in Chess the Buchholz system It's a good system, to the people saying its shit.
2021-10-24 14:37
5 replies
We don't play Chess here.
2021-10-24 14:56
3 replies
We play mr3, bo1, for tie-breakers from IEM? Oh ok, that made up system is much better xD
2021-10-24 15:54
2 replies
#99
 | 
Other LEMIEUX66
chess > ESL
2021-10-24 18:29
best major seeding was ESL Katowice 2019
2021-10-24 19:01
#74
JD | 
Poland Banzanic
+1
2021-10-24 15:55
#41
 | 
Sweden frizzahh
So confusing lol
2021-10-24 14:42
#42
 | 
Asia M@GNU5
wasn't this format used in the 3 previous majors?
2021-10-24 14:49
3 replies
#67
 | 
Czech Republic PaYaB
Only at faceit major, and it wasn't that good.
2021-10-24 15:48
2 replies
#77
 | 
Asia M@GNU5
hmmm, pretty sure it was used in Katowice and berlin as well cuz when I checked the matchups for the champions stage from the last 2 majors it "used" that system
2021-10-24 16:30
1 reply
#92
 | 
Czech Republic PaYaB
Kato and berlin had flexible elo created by teams seeding themselves in kato and hltv ranking in berlin.
2021-10-24 17:48
The initial seeding is just a JOKE for a $2million event
2021-10-24 14:45
Still half of the matches bo1 Even Pinnacle Regionals with top100-200 teams have bo3s cmon Valve maybe time to change this shit system
2021-10-24 14:45
1 reply
Shut
2021-10-24 14:54
Why can't valve just use the ESL Seeding system they used in Katowice?? I never saw that the community was so united that a system is so good... Don't get Valve. How much can you ignore the community Gaben? Gaben: Yes
2021-10-24 14:56
1 reply
+1, player-selected seeding was the best way to seed teams for sure. It was also fun to look at how the teams ordered themselves
2021-10-24 22:15
#66
 | 
Denmark Derige
I think the article has written up matchups wrong. Isnt Furia and Nip top seeds so they should play against 3-2 teams from challenger rather than 3-0? Edit: I see now they didnt write up matchups just the order my bad
2021-10-24 15:50
Tldr I'm a brainlet
2021-10-24 15:51
OK i read it 5 times and didnt understand 😎👍
2021-10-24 15:52
3 replies
+1
2021-10-24 16:40
+1
2021-10-24 16:47
#105
 | 
Germany Sonnabend
+1
2021-10-24 20:02
and still playing best of 1 on LAN on major........ meanwhile every week online meaningless best of 3 and best of 5 LMAO valve braindead
2021-10-24 16:24
EG in legends status, lmao. seems like living in US = being a pro
2021-10-24 16:45
not a bad system, but considering what happened at London I think it doesn't work for 5 round formats
2021-10-24 16:52
dont feel like reading, someone tell me how tf furia is considered the 2nd best team in the entire major?
2021-10-24 17:12
1 reply
Buchholz seeding only works for the rhird round on, so they’re keeping the crappy seeding for the first few rounds where #1=#1 Europe, #2=#1 NA
2021-10-24 17:34
#84
 | 
India INDI_Roxor
Astralis vs NIP looking more likely
2021-10-24 17:16
How EG is in legends stage?
2021-10-24 17:45
1 reply
#111
 | 
Sweden Lagge15
Because of faulty RMR system. It should just be a one-off issue. The RMR as is, was created for the online era
2021-10-24 21:37
Hahaha nerds using algorithms Biased AF
2021-10-24 18:01
#104
 | 
United Kingdom chexsum
how many apples do you get though?
2021-10-24 19:47
#107
 | 
Finland Tusku
rip my simulations
2021-10-24 21:20
Best system ever nice
2021-10-24 21:36
i dont get it, my brain capacity isn't enough to understand ghese formats anymore
2021-10-24 23:43
8. EG omegalul
2021-10-24 23:47
Good, Buchholz is as fair as you can get for Swiss, it has been used in chess for decades
2021-10-25 15:09
#125
 | 
Germany DiegoHu
What happens if Buchholz would lead to a matchup that was already played before?
2021-10-27 16:29
Login or register to add your comment to the discussion.